headers - yes or not?
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 3
From: PNW
headers - yes or not?
Trying to decide on this for a friend of mine. thinking of running a whipple 2.9 with about 9psi of boost on a stock motor L99 camaro (yes its a camaro but that shouldnt change anything).
ceramic coated 2" ARH with cats about $2350 without shipping to Dubai. Then comes to the cost of buying or fabricating a 3" axle back exhaust.
or
stock manifolds, custom fabricated 3" cat pipe with 100cell high-flow cats and a 3" exhaust + xpipe to the back with straight through mufflers. Should cost MUCH less.
Any way I could justify spending the money on the headers? Simply are headers worth power over our stock manifolds (which I heard were pretty good, not sure about the l99's however), or are most of the power gains coming from the switch to high-flow cats included with headers over stock cats.
How much power are we talking about on a PD blower set-up? I understand this would lower boost and allow me to run more spark advance.
ceramic coated 2" ARH with cats about $2350 without shipping to Dubai. Then comes to the cost of buying or fabricating a 3" axle back exhaust.
or
stock manifolds, custom fabricated 3" cat pipe with 100cell high-flow cats and a 3" exhaust + xpipe to the back with straight through mufflers. Should cost MUCH less.
Any way I could justify spending the money on the headers? Simply are headers worth power over our stock manifolds (which I heard were pretty good, not sure about the l99's however), or are most of the power gains coming from the switch to high-flow cats included with headers over stock cats.
How much power are we talking about on a PD blower set-up? I understand this would lower boost and allow me to run more spark advance.
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
Headers will definitely aid in making big power on an FI car, but I would consider looking at the Texas Speed (a site sponsor here, on ls1tech and camaro5) longtubes. Plenty of people on Tech and Camaro5 have run them with great results, and the pricing is much more attractive.
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-2168-te...ro-ss-62l.aspx
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-2168-te...ro-ss-62l.aspx
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 3
From: PNW
thanks alot the texas deal headers do sound like a bargain compared to the ARH or Kooks. Now I really want to hear a scientific explanation on why would headers work better when compared to the stock manifolds, assuming both have an xpipe, highflow cats and a complete 3" exhaust.
I remember when I had a Z06, all of the dyno comparisons never showed much of a gain, something like 4rwhp or something silly like that, not sure about torque, but whats the point of throwing money on headers if I could do the same with the stock manifolds and just run 0.5 more PSI of boost and compensate for that.
I remember when I had a Z06, all of the dyno comparisons never showed much of a gain, something like 4rwhp or something silly like that, not sure about torque, but whats the point of throwing money on headers if I could do the same with the stock manifolds and just run 0.5 more PSI of boost and compensate for that.
Racer
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 384
Likes: 2
From: Warrenville IL
I had my ls3 with TVS2300 put down 513rwhp/484rwtq on ~7.5-8 lbs boost with stock NPP exhaust system.
I then installed American Racing 1 7/8" headers with hi-flow cats. 0 rwhp gain, maybe 8 rwtq increase and boost dropped to ~6.5.
Then I had a custom cam installed and swapped the pulleys around to get 9.7 lbs peak boost. Results were 597rwhp/571rwhp.
I could no longer deal with the noise of the headers AND the cam and there were some tuning problems that were thought to be associated with the location of the 02 sensor. I swapped out the headers for ZR1 manifolds/cats and Borla ZR1 x-pipe merged into the stock LS3 x-pipe so that it would meet up with the stock NPP mufflers.
After the retune the power dropped to 555rwhp/531rwtq on a 30 degree cooler day. Oddly enough, the boost remained unchanged with the manifolds. The tuner had to pull 4 degrees of timing. That's a loss of 43rwhp/32rwtq from dumping the headers.
It's soooo much quieter now though.
I then installed American Racing 1 7/8" headers with hi-flow cats. 0 rwhp gain, maybe 8 rwtq increase and boost dropped to ~6.5.
Then I had a custom cam installed and swapped the pulleys around to get 9.7 lbs peak boost. Results were 597rwhp/571rwhp.
I could no longer deal with the noise of the headers AND the cam and there were some tuning problems that were thought to be associated with the location of the 02 sensor. I swapped out the headers for ZR1 manifolds/cats and Borla ZR1 x-pipe merged into the stock LS3 x-pipe so that it would meet up with the stock NPP mufflers.
After the retune the power dropped to 555rwhp/531rwtq on a 30 degree cooler day. Oddly enough, the boost remained unchanged with the manifolds. The tuner had to pull 4 degrees of timing. That's a loss of 43rwhp/32rwtq from dumping the headers.
It's soooo much quieter now though.
Last edited by deecount; Nov 27, 2011 at 06:33 AM.
Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 3
From: PNW
ok well something doesnt make any sense here, when you installed the headers did you go for a retune? Headers wont really make any power on a boosted platform if you did not take advantage of being able to run more timing due to the lower boost (lower restriction).
Also what doesnt make sense is you switching from headers to manifolds, if boost remained the same then you're tuner shouldnt have pulled four degrees of timing off, there was definitely somemthing wrong between the intial tune and the final tune that im missing.
Same tuner?
Thanks alot for sharing!
Also what doesnt make sense is you switching from headers to manifolds, if boost remained the same then you're tuner shouldnt have pulled four degrees of timing off, there was definitely somemthing wrong between the intial tune and the final tune that im missing.
Same tuner?
Thanks alot for sharing!
Racer
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 384
Likes: 2
From: Warrenville IL
The initial TVS2300 install and tune was done by Lingenfelter.
The header install and re-tune was done by Speed Inc. I was told to expect 25+ rwhp gain with the headers so, as you can imagine, I wasn't happy with a whopping gain of 0. I didn't get much of an explanation other than the tuner said that it's not unusual to gain 0 with headers on a supercharged car.
The cam install/pulley change/re-tune was done by Modern Muscle. They also did the re-tune after swapping the headers with manifolds. The tuner wasn't sure why the boost didn't increase either. He did say he suspected that the exhaust gases weren't being evacuated from the cylinder fast enough, probably due to the loss of scavenging by removing the headers.
I'm not a tuner or a performance car builder, all I can do is share the results I've been given.
The header install and re-tune was done by Speed Inc. I was told to expect 25+ rwhp gain with the headers so, as you can imagine, I wasn't happy with a whopping gain of 0. I didn't get much of an explanation other than the tuner said that it's not unusual to gain 0 with headers on a supercharged car.
The cam install/pulley change/re-tune was done by Modern Muscle. They also did the re-tune after swapping the headers with manifolds. The tuner wasn't sure why the boost didn't increase either. He did say he suspected that the exhaust gases weren't being evacuated from the cylinder fast enough, probably due to the loss of scavenging by removing the headers.
I'm not a tuner or a performance car builder, all I can do is share the results I've been given.
Last edited by deecount; Nov 27, 2011 at 09:54 AM. Reason: spelling
Race Director
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 11,331
Likes: 18
From: Missouri City Texas
Did you have before/after dyno done at speed Inc or only an "after" on their dyno?
I find it hard to believe that you actually gained nothing. As you noted, you lost over 40rwhp dumping the headers after you installed the cam, so I think maybe the speed inc dyno was just reading low?
I find it hard to believe that you actually gained nothing. As you noted, you lost over 40rwhp dumping the headers after you installed the cam, so I think maybe the speed inc dyno was just reading low?
Racer
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 384
Likes: 2
From: Warrenville IL
The car left Lingenfelter with 513rwhp on their dynojet.
I paid extra to have a pre-install dyno at Speed Inc.
510rwhp before the headers and 510rwhp after the headers.
Then the pre-install dyno for the cam/pulley at Modern Muscle was 513rwhp.
I paid extra to have a pre-install dyno at Speed Inc.
510rwhp before the headers and 510rwhp after the headers.
Then the pre-install dyno for the cam/pulley at Modern Muscle was 513rwhp.
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Thread Starter
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 3
From: PNW
Ok theres something that doesnt make sense. I know you cannot get wrong if Jim tuned your car but if you dropped 1-1.5 PSI of boost then you should have been able to run a few more degrees of timing, and you are no where close to peak timing where you're car will not produce any more power with additional timing.
Also, if reverting to ZR1 manifolds (which btw are much better than the lS3 manifolds) made you loose that much power, then it must have given you something, think about it that way?
Anyways, I made up my mind, I will go with LG motorsports 1 7/8 with a 3" x-pipe or a kooks stepped headers.
Also, if reverting to ZR1 manifolds (which btw are much better than the lS3 manifolds) made you loose that much power, then it must have given you something, think about it that way?
Anyways, I made up my mind, I will go with LG motorsports 1 7/8 with a 3" x-pipe or a kooks stepped headers.
