F1X C6 guys, which bracket you using?
10-21-2013, 07:57 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
My data logs at the racetrack today showed some alarming fluctuations in the MAF signal as the car entered boost, right before the PCM takes away throttle contol. At first, my eyes were drawn towards the MAF, and as luck would have it, I have a spare. Both of these MAFs are the new style, not the older "weak" MAFs.
The same thing happened again on a test drive on a closed course with the replacement MAF, ergo, there has to be a condition causing this at this point, and not a sensor issue. My best guess is that the throttle blade on my NW102 is fluttering before the PCM shuts it, likely due to safety parameters and algorithms.
Has anyone come across a fluttering issue with the NW102 as they have surfed other GM related forums? I know there are guys on here that frequent boards from coast to coast, and I would be interested in hearing from you if you could link me to threads where I can learn more about this issue.
The same thing happened again on a test drive on a closed course with the replacement MAF, ergo, there has to be a condition causing this at this point, and not a sensor issue. My best guess is that the throttle blade on my NW102 is fluttering before the PCM shuts it, likely due to safety parameters and algorithms.
Has anyone come across a fluttering issue with the NW102 as they have surfed other GM related forums? I know there are guys on here that frequent boards from coast to coast, and I would be interested in hearing from you if you could link me to threads where I can learn more about this issue.
I got ahold of Nick Williams, he says it's the PCM freaking out from the extra torque on the motor the increased airflow has on the bigger throttle blade. The blade moves a larger degree than the PCM allows.
There are calibration tables for it, but neither HP Tuners of EFI Live give you access to them.
There are calibration tables for it, but neither HP Tuners of EFI Live give you access to them.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222094
10-21-2013, 08:19 PM
#22
Team Owner
Like I said, the PD blower wreak havoc on them sucking them shut. Never seen anyone have issues with one on a centri/turbo car.
10-21-2013, 09:32 PM
#23
Melting Slicks
10-21-2013, 09:41 PM
#24
Team Owner
I know that. Never heard he had issues and since I've never talked to him and don't know what the issues were I would still say I've never seen an issue with NW102 and centri/turbos. I know an APS TT car that made 1000+ with a nw102, no issues.
10-22-2013, 07:45 AM
#25
I have the Cartek Procharger bracket in my LS7. When I started looking for a F1X blower bracket, I contacted Cartek about their kit and was told that it would be “bolt-on” for my setup. So went ahead and ordered it with their flip-drive kit. Bolt-on, yeah right. I’m fine doing machining work when needed, but when I buy parts that are told to be bolt-on, they should. This kit was not like that. Overall I wasn’t impressed with this bracket, reasons:
1) Belt alignment was off by a lot, I turned new parts for the bracket to make it perfect as I don’t like shims. Cartek suggested machining the blower pulley. I want to be able to use them out of the box.
2) No spacers provided for waterpump bolts. Seemed to me Cartek didn’t even know how the gen3/gen4 waterpumps differ. Turned these as well.
3) Depending on your setup you may have to modify the waterneck / thermostat housing to clear the tensioner body.
4) The idler pulley and tensioner pulley were out of alignment with each other and with the blower pulley. This alignment issue did not match the belt alignment problem by the way, these were off by less than that. Again, shimming not my solution (would not have worked either), ended up modifying existing and machining new parts.
5) Tensioner arm pulley will not fit with a larger-than-stock damper. Cartek suggested installing the bracket with the tensioner loaded to clear the damper… Well, try loading the tensioner by hand while installing the bracket... Then what happens if the belt snaps… Ended up buying a smaller and wider (double bearing) idler and machining a fitting for it. Using the original idler would have required shimming, see previous point.
6) Idler pulleys are only 30mm wide, not good when running 8-rib belt. Other vendors usually have 38mm wide idlers for 8-rib belts. This is also why you need a perfect alignment for them. I now only have one original Cartek idler, which I will probably end up replacing.
7) The pulleys only run single bearings, not good considering the amount of belt tension with this kit. For example, ECS has double bearing idlers with way less belt tension. Another reason to replace the Cartek idlers.
8) Tensioner arm doesn’t have anything to turn/load the tensioner from when installing the belt. Modified it to have an extra bolt head for this.
9) 8-rib belt will touch the tensioner screw bracket, machining needed if using a 8-rib belt.
Now it works really well, no belt slip whatsoever, no belt problems or anything. Just remember the Cartek bracket needs work to make it work properly. Even more work if you’re going to run a 8-rib belt. As others said, 10-rib will not fit.
I bet someone will say that Cartek bracket will work out of the box. Maybe it does work, but at these power levels I’d rather modify it to make it perfect than run into problems later on…
1) Belt alignment was off by a lot, I turned new parts for the bracket to make it perfect as I don’t like shims. Cartek suggested machining the blower pulley. I want to be able to use them out of the box.
2) No spacers provided for waterpump bolts. Seemed to me Cartek didn’t even know how the gen3/gen4 waterpumps differ. Turned these as well.
3) Depending on your setup you may have to modify the waterneck / thermostat housing to clear the tensioner body.
4) The idler pulley and tensioner pulley were out of alignment with each other and with the blower pulley. This alignment issue did not match the belt alignment problem by the way, these were off by less than that. Again, shimming not my solution (would not have worked either), ended up modifying existing and machining new parts.
5) Tensioner arm pulley will not fit with a larger-than-stock damper. Cartek suggested installing the bracket with the tensioner loaded to clear the damper… Well, try loading the tensioner by hand while installing the bracket... Then what happens if the belt snaps… Ended up buying a smaller and wider (double bearing) idler and machining a fitting for it. Using the original idler would have required shimming, see previous point.
6) Idler pulleys are only 30mm wide, not good when running 8-rib belt. Other vendors usually have 38mm wide idlers for 8-rib belts. This is also why you need a perfect alignment for them. I now only have one original Cartek idler, which I will probably end up replacing.
7) The pulleys only run single bearings, not good considering the amount of belt tension with this kit. For example, ECS has double bearing idlers with way less belt tension. Another reason to replace the Cartek idlers.
8) Tensioner arm doesn’t have anything to turn/load the tensioner from when installing the belt. Modified it to have an extra bolt head for this.
9) 8-rib belt will touch the tensioner screw bracket, machining needed if using a 8-rib belt.
Now it works really well, no belt slip whatsoever, no belt problems or anything. Just remember the Cartek bracket needs work to make it work properly. Even more work if you’re going to run a 8-rib belt. As others said, 10-rib will not fit.
I bet someone will say that Cartek bracket will work out of the box. Maybe it does work, but at these power levels I’d rather modify it to make it perfect than run into problems later on…
10-22-2013, 08:21 AM
#26
Premium Supporting Vendor
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I'm going to look for a picture of a customer's car who came to our open house day here a couple of months ago and won "best engine bay", he has our procharger brackets, a FAST intake with a N.W. throttle body.
Later we had to remove the N.W. TB because it failed, but it was on when he won and I have a picture of it somewhere. Give me a bit to find it.
Later we had to remove the N.W. TB because it failed, but it was on when he won and I have a picture of it somewhere. Give me a bit to find it.
10-22-2013, 08:58 AM
#27
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Interesting.
I'll upload my photos too. I took a few.
Again, I made it work but, not without modifying spacer, bolt head of tension-er(?), throttle body plug, throttle body socket. Then the task of actually getting the TB to fit with everything plugged in.
Not exactly what I expected in a package I was guaranteed to work.
I'll upload my photos too. I took a few.
Again, I made it work but, not without modifying spacer, bolt head of tension-er(?), throttle body plug, throttle body socket. Then the task of actually getting the TB to fit with everything plugged in.
Not exactly what I expected in a package I was guaranteed to work.
10-22-2013, 10:36 AM
#30
NW with ECS Bracket
My car is the one that Doug is referring too. I spent a lot of money buying and installing a Fast 102 with a NW 102 DBW TB. No real reason other than I wanted something different and I liked how the NW TB looked. Much beefier that stock. I also have the secondary ECS fuel system installed. Running a D1 with 8 rib setup. To install the Fast 102 I had to use the shorter engine mounts so the intake would clear the cowl. Not a big deal. Then had to grind down part of the water pump to clear everything. Ok not so bad so far. Had to send new fuel rail to ECS to have a new bung installed in Drivers side Fuel Rail for secondary system. Next issue down.Then I try and mount the NW TB and now the dam thing wont fit. It hits the single cross bar between the back plate and front plate. Ok so what to do now. I look and on the front plate there is a slot so the bolt head can sit slightly below the bracket that the head mounts to and on the rear bracket there looks like its pretty flat in that area. So I Basically say what the hell and end up moving the spacer bolt and bar back about 1" . I marked where the bolt needed to be so that it cleared both the NW TB as well as the belt. I then drilled a new hole in both brackets. I clamped them together so that they were properly aligned. I had to machine (Grind) the rear one ever so slightly so that there was enough room for the nut head. The bolt and spacer are still in the beefy part of the bracket just moved slightly back. Everything lined up just like it had only now the NW TB fits real nice. The belt is slightly closer than it was but stills clears real nice. So I think hay problem solved. Then from Day one it kept going into reduced power mode. I think it just needs to be tuned so off to ECS I go only to find out that the NW TB is Bad. So after all the additional work I ended up replacing with LS2 TB. The cross bar in its stock location would have cleared the LS TB fine. ECS sent it back to NW for diagnostics still waiting to hear results of tests. Since then no problems and the car runs fine. If I had to do it all over again I would not use the NW TB. Not sure if it make a difference but it may for MAX Power. ECS felt it would not make a difference. Easier and cheaper to pulley down.
If you want let me know and I can take some pictures and some measurements.
If you want let me know and I can take some pictures and some measurements.
10-22-2013, 12:41 PM
#31
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
My car is the one that Doug is referring too. I spent a lot of money buying and installing a Fast 102 with a NW 102 DBW TB. No real reason other than I wanted something different and I liked how the NW TB looked. Much beefier that stock. I also have the secondary ECS fuel system installed. Running a D1 with 8 rib setup. To install the Fast 102 I had to use the shorter engine mounts so the intake would clear the cowl. Not a big deal. Then had to grind down part of the water pump to clear everything. Ok not so bad so far. Had to send new fuel rail to ECS to have a new bung installed in Drivers side Fuel Rail for secondary system. Next issue down.Then I try and mount the NW TB and now the dam thing wont fit. It hits the single cross bar between the back plate and front plate. Ok so what to do now. I look and on the front plate there is a slot so the bolt head can sit slightly below the bracket that the head mounts to and on the rear bracket there looks like its pretty flat in that area. So I Basically say what the hell and end up moving the spacer bolt and bar back about 1" . I marked where the bolt needed to be so that it cleared both the NW TB as well as the belt. I then drilled a new hole in both brackets. I clamped them together so that they were properly aligned. I had to machine (Grind) the rear one ever so slightly so that there was enough room for the nut head. The bolt and spacer are still in the beefy part of the bracket just moved slightly back. Everything lined up just like it had only now the NW TB fits real nice. The belt is slightly closer than it was but stills clears real nice. So I think hay problem solved. Then from Day one it kept going into reduced power mode. I think it just needs to be tuned so off to ECS I go only to find out that the NW TB is Bad. So after all the additional work I ended up replacing with LS2 TB. The cross bar in its stock location would have cleared the LS TB fine. ECS sent it back to NW for diagnostics still waiting to hear results of tests. Since then no problems and the car runs fine. If I had to do it all over again I would not use the NW TB. Not sure if it make a difference but it may for MAX Power. ECS felt it would not make a difference. Easier and cheaper to pulley down.
If you want let me know and I can take some pictures and some measurements.
If you want let me know and I can take some pictures and some measurements.
Thanks for the insight. Wish I would have known this before I encouraged buddy to buy something that needed to be modified to work.
Good thinking on moving the bracket spacer away,..I didn't think of that for rigidity reasons but, makes sense. I will get my pics as soon as my phone is done uploading them.
Nick Williams seems like a legit dude, talked to him in the past when "I" screwed an item up on a past install...he helped me out without any problems. Honestly, he didn't even charge me,...even though I directly told him it was "MY" mistake. Also curious to what the issue was with that TB that you had as well.
Anywho, thanks for the info everyone. Unfortunately for us,..it's about a week late lol.
My luck-
10-23-2013, 04:55 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
also..the bolts that go through the bracket, to bolt to the cylinder head...the counter sunk holes, are NOT deep enough to allow any type of socket to be used to tighten. I had to sacrifice a socket to work for this, just to tighten the bolts to the heads....really sucked cause even though I ground down this socket to the point it was super thin,...it still pulled some of the annodizing off. Which, really Fing sucked-
10-23-2013, 05:39 PM
#33
Former Vendor
Just wanted to clarify, that we sell our billet j-bracket for $275. Some guys want just that piece. It's a nice upgrade if you already have a procharger bracket setup.
Not sure what combination of parts totalled $1900 but that would have included a lot of stuff, not just the J-bracket.
Sorry I'm late, just saw that and wanted to clarify... carry on...
10-23-2013, 05:56 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Just wanted to clarify, that we sell our billet j-bracket for $275. Some guys want just that piece. It's a nice upgrade if you already have a procharger bracket setup.
Not sure what combination of parts totalled $1900 but that would have included a lot of stuff, not just the J-bracket.
Sorry I'm late, just saw that and wanted to clarify... carry on...
Not sure what combination of parts totalled $1900 but that would have included a lot of stuff, not just the J-bracket.
Sorry I'm late, just saw that and wanted to clarify... carry on...
Well then my friend, you might wanna talk to your staff.
...I still have my notes. "$1900.00 J bracket only" I was so shocked....I asked twice...double underlined the price lol. The price you just gave, seems WAY more realistic.
Thanks for responding.
10-23-2013, 08:02 PM
#35
10-23-2013, 09:19 PM
#36
Former Vendor
Head unit location is moved into a position to allow maximum clearance for blower inlet, also to allow head units all the way up to F1X to clear the stock hood. The bracket itself is thicker to stop the deflection issues we saw years ago on bigger blowers that created belt issues. Etc.
10-24-2013, 11:56 AM
#37
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I'm sorry you were given the wrong information. If you have a specific question in the future you are welcome to email me: Taylor@dallasperformance.com
Head unit location is moved into a position to allow maximum clearance for blower inlet, also to allow head units all the way up to F1X to clear the stock hood. The bracket itself is thicker to stop the deflection issues we saw years ago on bigger blowers that created belt issues. Etc.
Head unit location is moved into a position to allow maximum clearance for blower inlet, also to allow head units all the way up to F1X to clear the stock hood. The bracket itself is thicker to stop the deflection issues we saw years ago on bigger blowers that created belt issues. Etc.
Thank you sir.