Methanol is as amazing or more amazing than E85, a pure racing fuel. Of course more is better. 100% methanol fuel would be superior to the sprinkle most inject right now.
The point of the methanol as an AUXILIARY system is to use as little as possible.
The whole reason you don't run the engine on 100% meth is because of cost and complexity involved.
The whole point of aux meth/water injection system is to avoid upgrading the primary fuel source (from gasoline) to something more expensive (cost)

Therefore in order to max the benefit of such a system, the minimal amount of meth should be utilized. Otherwise, a more complex system (NON-AUX) Should be implemented.
To repeat: I am not saying methanol is not 'doing anything'. It is in fact incredible as a fuel source, no argument. What I am saying is that, the quantity injected via an AUX system should never be enough to become methanol dependent, because it eliminates the practical nature of having the aux system as a safety net in the first place. The configuration may cross the tuning threshold easily with methanol spraying because meth creates an extremely tolerant combustion reaction where a wider range of timing and a/f values are acceptable. And the aux system stability is finite; the pump will die after a few years and the engine will blow unless severe safety measures are taken (at which point you should have a regular methanol system as a fuel source and not a cheap aux system).

Methanol burns as a fuel, it will not cool down when it burns. Thats like saying gasoline cools when it burns. Or Ethanol cools when it burns.
All of those fuels take energy out of the combustion components the way water does when it transitions to a gaseous state, but water takes the most per unit mass and volume. Very little water is needed to achieve a massive cooling improvement. To not take advantage of the property of water is simply ignorance. Ethanol cools intake components because the quantity injected is significant (most of the fuel is Alcohol) which isn't the case with aux injected meth. If you are injecting that much methanol then the engine is meth dependent and as an aux injection system is being utilized incorrectly (unless meth dependency is a warranted, i.e. racing for $$ and sponsorships or titles)

 

You literally said... "methanol raises octane but does nothing for cooling the components inside the engine"

We're just going to have to disagree on this one. Rebuild the pump every year or two, setup the tune to be safe if IAT's don't drop, etc. Not a big deal and there are reliable meth injection systems out there.

You're saying contradictory things. "it will not cool down when it burns" followed by "All of those fuels take energy out of the combustion components the way water does when it transitions to a gaseous state". No one is saying a methanol fire is cold, that would be absurd.

But there is still heat removed from the cylinder from the phase change and from the leftover methanol, since obviously we're running richer than lambda=1

The systems work.. they are simple, the get the extra octane needed on these engines when we get in the 650rwhp+ area on stock bottom ends and they are reliable, and can have failsafes.

Would be it be ideal for every FI C6 to run straight methanol or race fuel 100% of the time? Sure, when pigs fly I'm sure everyone will jump right on that. In the meantime they'll run a cheap, effective, meth injection system and enjoy it.

What's the alternative for guys that don't live in a place where E85 is readily available? Straight methanol and all the crazy pumps, injectors, etc that would go along with that so they aren't "meth dependent" all the time?

edit: To be clear, I don't think some % water is a bad thing. I just personally don't run it, and neither does almost anyone on this board.. and a lot of these cars are surviving significant increases over stock power and have done so for years, so what we're doing seems to be working. If it's setup for 50/50 water/meth or something from the beginning I'm sure it's fine. But I can't imagine running 10% meth / 90% water for example.

 

I feel like I've seen some of these same comments/arguments on here about Methanol before..

 

everything has been covered
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1598738187

in shorts,
1. 51% methanol and higher is a hazard, it burns with an invisible flame. Stupid to have any container with this on a car for pleasure cruising, especially if you take passengers. Always dilute to 49% methanol for safety unless racing for sponsorship/money/titles/etc
2. Water is the essential cooling component for cast piston, oil-squirter less engines (i.e. every OEM chevrolet 'truck engine') and fundamentally more important on every level than methanol for keeping the delicate engine safe at high boost. Water injection 100% distilled is and was always considered routine for such systems, methanol only added as necessary when absolutely necessary in order to keep cost and hazard to minimum.

 

How did this thread turn into the Jim Bakker channel?

 

Yeah. That thread is a **** show. I’ll spare everyone here from continuing.

 

And the crowd went wild. yeah, baby yeah.

 

 

I don't mix water, it's not flammable

 

How are you defining 'optimal performance'?

When I put my blower on, I started with 50/50. Switching to straight meth, the tuner was able to add more timing and I was able to drop a pulley to also increase boost which resulted in large power gains (same dyno, very similar weather - backed up by 1/2 mile track mph).

I struggle to believe that if I would've added 20% more water to my original 50/50 mix that I could've gained more power than I did with straight meth. Unless your definition of optimal means making less power.

In terms of cooling and safety of pistons, I dont seem to be pushing it hard enough to have an issue there. It's been on straight meth for probably 3 years including 3 half mile events with plenty of runs. To be honest, I'm not that worried about it as there are people on a SBE LS3 running way more meth and making way more power than I am at these events.

 

The info is provided based on analysis of the threads I posted, for example

https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...l#post17401557
Its all there if you spend the time reading. The evolution of water injection is quite closely linked to boost pressure and water plays a fundamental role in combustion.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...28&postcount=7


I don't want to confuse you though. Water takes power out of the combination because it absorbs energy.
For the most part this is consistent throughout our gasoline/boost applications. The only caveat being the interplay of water and combustion (it may play a role somehow) at low flow rates which while undoubtedly reducing the energy of combustion upon vaporization (transition to gas) may provide useful substrates in the chemical reaction of combustion (intermediate reaction coordinates) that somehow improve power in some range of useful stoichiometry (I'm making it sound tenuous so you understand that the likely hood of adding water to any ICE and gaining power is a very limited and practically useless without also changing some other aspect i.e. boost pressure, to compensate)

 

I love how linking threads on other forums, written by people with no real knowledge is now considered reference material lol. Might as well post pictures of your crayon filled notebook as evidence too. I can find plenty of references stating the earth is flat so I assume you believe that too?

 

One of the few good / well documented comparisons I've seen:

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-te...-adds-42-rwhp/

 

is meth a must with a mild set up?

2010 GS manual trans

Headers, High Flow cats. and a A&A si suppercharger kit.Going to tune mild around 575 rwhp.

No drag racing or track for me only fun street driving

 

auto or M6? Bigger Lower balancer?

 

M6 for life. Stock lower balancer.


ttboyvette, i would say no, for 575 and low boost, you won't need meth. I don't see meth spray until 5-7psi or more.

 

Definitely not necessary. I wouldn't find the hassle of meth to be worth it at that point.

 

Always ran a water/meth mix but gave up on convincing anyone with a vette that it works great.

Safer, pump lasts forever, raises octane and cools, which is the point in the first place.

 

1. It isn't just one or two people using the methanol systems, and sharing results. The sample size from provided links is around 50 individuals, some of which (like sales@tick racing) are forum sponsors 'shops' sharing information.
2. If you don't use links to real people using real meth systems, what do you use? You can't trust manufacturers of those systems because as I pointed out in the links, they hide the absolute truth behind catch phrases and key words, in general, not to confuse people but just to keep the claims about what the system can really do to a minimum and make it easy to read (ever see a wall of text and not want to read it? yeah).
3. There are MANY actual 'references' in say, google scholar, providing data about water injection. But very few utilize methanol on top of water. As I stated a couple times, the systems were originally intended for water and the meth just sort of crept in as an octane booster at some point due to its easy of miscibility and use.
4. I myself am not novice to meth injection. For example I tuned a meth 50/50 2.0L @ 450rwhp a couple months ago

So I speak not only for the sample of information strewn over the net, I also provide personal experience (roughly ~100 cars tuned over the last 20 years as a hobby), college coursework (teaching assistanceship for chemistry, biology, mathematics, fluid mechanics, basic engineering and chemistry courses) and basic technical skill as a sort of 'filter' for all the bullshit.

If that isn't enough there really is no other option than to try it yourself and post your own data / figure it out alone.

Now I want to discuss recommended personal method for using one of these systems on a daily driver or otherwise reliable vehicle.
My pref method:
-keep timing down, don't add any if possible. Tune it like 93 only so if the meth cuts out the engine doesn't immediately explode, unless also using a fail safe for flow.
-Use mostly water for the cooling and hold EGT 1000-1200*F at WOT, write an Arduino water controller to inject water based on measured EGT to automate the water flow rate.
-Arduino is also used to measure flow rate, twice on expensive engines. useful for alarm and safety cut off.

With the creative implement of auto-EGT compensation, flow sensor warning/cut off, a water injection system can be a valuable reliable additional to any pump fuel vehicle.

 

The smell of bovine excrement is strong in this one.