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In closing, I’ll offer this advice: 99% of the time, anyone that takes the time to proffer advice on these forums does so because they genuinely believe they can help. At least I do. That’s is not to say that we know what’s best. That’s for you to figure out. So, you’ll get further on here by listening a little more and not engaging in theoretical debate with them. I had to do learn to do that myself, but most of the guys on here have learned to sit and watch me experiment and laugh at me (and in the case of old motorhead, even verbally abuse me) when I **** something up from not listening to them.
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If too many folks heed my advice, it would be really boring around here. Mildly boosted engines with mild cams and other cheap/safe/boring mods. There's no fun in that. Folks like Sammy doing what they do is where it gets interesting. I do poke the bear a little, but Sammy knows I luv him.
And yeah those Detroit blowers are named for the number of cylinders (6 in the case of a 6-71) and size of the cylinders (71 cubic inches per hole in the case of the 6-71) or that blower was specced for a 426 cubic inch engine. The biggest in the 71 series that I'm aware of is a 16v71TI. Two 8-71's tied together and in addition to two big roots blowers, it was also turbocharged and intercooled. 800 hp at 2100 rpm. Torque came in at 2150ft/lbs at 1600 rpm. I'm sure there were bigger ones too.
I have to say again that I really appreciate everyone's reply here. It is always difficult to hit the right tone when writing these posts - and things can easily misinterpreted - that's the primary difficulty this virtual exchange platform where we cannot interact on a personal level. Thanks again.
CI: I have another question for you here - do you have a pressure measurement before the heartbeat at 6k rpm? Ideally just after the throttlebody?
I have looked at the dual drive system again - one proposal: use off-the-shelf HDT belts and pulleys which we can all have here within less than a few days. We would use the ECS tensioner (best in the industry in my view) and instead of a bracket for the NOVI, it will be a similar looking bracket with a secondary pulley that runs to the heartbeat. I am still thinking and if you can help with inputs, I would consider running a small production run - not making dollars but simply ensure that we produce and sell to cover our own costs...
Damn I wish I would have bought that 4.5 Whipple ... stuffed around too long now somebody else bought it
I have to say again that I really appreciate everyone's reply here. It is always difficult to hit the right tone when writing these posts - and things can easily misinterpreted - that's the primary difficulty this virtual exchange platform where we cannot interact on a personal level. Thanks again.
CI: I have another question for you here - do you have a pressure measurement before the heartbeat at 6k rpm? Ideally just after the throttlebody?
I have looked at the dual drive system again - one proposal: use off-the-shelf HDT belts and pulleys which we can all have here within less than a few days. We would use the ECS tensioner (best in the industry in my view) and instead of a bracket for the NOVI, it will be a similar looking bracket with a secondary pulley that runs to the heartbeat. I am still thinking and if you can help with inputs, I would consider running a small production run - not making dollars but simply ensure that we produce and sell to cover our own costs...
Damn I wish I would have bought that 4.5 Whipple ... stuffed around too long now somebody else bought it
I recorded ~ 4in.Hg. of vacuum at WOT/High on the stock 90mm BEHIND the throttle body. The vacuum port I used was one of the nipples in the TBA. This was with a 3.2” 6-rib pulley that was slipping, I think.
I also recorded ~2 in. Hg. of vacuum in FRONT of the stock 90mm TB, from the nipple in the bellows.
I interpreted this as the Magnuson air filter assembly being a restriction and the throttle body bring an even bigger one.
I also think it’s a waste of time to try to engineer a secondary drive system for the Heartbeat.
Firstly, going bigger on the balancer could only be possible if you use a tubular engine cradle, which would dictate you having to change the front suspension, steering rack, etc. and you would also need to get a custom water pump pulley or do a remote mount water pump setup. None of this could be justified on a cost/benefit analysis.
If you’re talking about a double pulley on the ECS tensioner, that won’t work either, even if you could find space for it. You need to bear in mind that the ECS tensioner is rearward facing, so the tensioner arm itself would be in the way of using a second pulley, and, just as importantly, the ECS tensioner engages the belt on the smooth side anyway, so that could not be used to drive anything.
As for your lamenting not buying the whipple, you may have dodged an even bigger bullet there. There’s a reason you don’t see much about them on these forums. You would be further ahead buying a KONG 2650 ZR1 blower, IF you can find a way to make the drive system work. I’ll leave it at that.
How are you going to put a pulley up front, with the steering rack there? Re-engineering a system, for fairly simple goals is beyond silly.
The 2nd pulley system would run from the top left of the engine to the heartbeat. Very similar with respect to how this dry sump is driven. Can you see the additional shaft that is driven by the harmonic balancer? That shaft then drives a HDT belt to the pump. So we do not need space infront of the steering rack
Yes, it is beyond silly. Everything I do here is beyond silly, borderline stupid, no actually just simply stupid. I should sell all this motorsports rubbish and invest in a property. But I am not, I am tinkering and tinkering and tinkering and thinking and re-thinking and re-engineering for the sake of:
a) losing money
b) losing time
c) risking my own safety
It is a proper sickness, as I admitted it before. I need help.
I recorded ~ 4in.Hg. of vacuum at WOT/High on the stock 90mm BEHIND the throttle body. The vacuum port I used was one of the nipples in the TBA. This was with a 3.2” 6-rib pulley that was slipping, I think.
I also recorded ~2 in. Hg. of vacuum in FRONT of the stock 90mm TB, from the nipple in the bellows.
I interpreted this as the Magnuson air filter assembly being a restriction and the throttle body bring an even bigger one.
I also think it’s a waste of time to try to engineer a secondary drive system for the Heartbeat.
Firstly, going bigger on the balancer could only be possible if you use a tubular engine cradle, which would dictate you having to change the front suspension, steering rack, etc. and you would also need to get a custom water pump pulley or do a remote mount water pump setup. None of this could be justified on a cost/benefit analysis.
If you’re talking about a double pulley on the ECS tensioner, that won’t work either, even if you could find space for it. You need to bear in mind that the ECS tensioner is rearward facing, so the tensioner arm itself would be in the way of using a second pulley, and, just as importantly, the ECS tensioner engages the belt on the smooth side anyway, so that could not be used to drive anything.
As for your lamenting not buying the whipple, you may have dodged an even bigger bullet there. There’s a reason you don’t see much about them on these forums. You would be further ahead buying a KONG 2650 ZR1 blower, IF you can find a way to make the drive system work. I’ll leave it at that.
That is 2PSI that you could win if you used a, say NOVI1500 infront of the heartbeat.
OK, thanks. Does anyone have a nice front image of the ECS setup so I can explain what I am thinking?
I stopped doing cost-benefit analyses on my motorsports rubbish a long time ago. My wife was the first person to force me making these and I was close to committing suicide when I looked at these trade-offs.
So at best you have a 10 rib driving a jack shaft pulley, that then drives 2 blowers. No way that main belt holds. Getting a belt to drive a single blower is tough enough, let alone the load of two.
So at best you have a 10 rib driving a jack shaft pulley, that then drives 2 blowers. No way that main belt holds. Getting a belt to drive a single blower is tough enough, let alone the load of two.
You only have to do the work once - if you add a NOVI to the heartbeat, and you increase from say 15PSI to 20PSI, the load on the belt increases only by a factor of x1.25. If the NOVI does some of the compression, then the heartbeat does not have to do that amount of compression, so the load on the heartbeat would reduce. In other words, if you ran two identical hearbeat blowers in series, the load on the second one goes down to probably 20% and you are effectively only driving the first one with 80% of the power.
Anyway, my thought experiment with the two blowers should be put to rest. I will write another post and explain the secondary drive system for the heartbeat.
OK, there my original thought on adding the second pulley system. There is enough space to accomodate this. The pulley on the top, left corver is no longer the tensioner as per factory, but the jackshaft that runs the second pulley system. I use the ECS supercharger tensioner to replace the factory tensioner on the main belt, then use it a second time for the secondary belt.
Before going any further, is the Eaton 2300 capable of producing 1000 HP or not? Where do we need to spin it to?
Where is the reference for this to read up on? If they put it on their website, we shall be making 1000hp.
The above shown dual pulley system would require a few people to buy it otherwise I will drown to death in the costs. But let me do some more work on it and see where this goes. We cannot allow this heartbeat to make 1000hp on a ZL1 and then give into smaller numbers on the Vette! That is just not right in any sense. It's a glitch in the matrix and it needs to be corrected.
Can a 2300 rotor pack make 1000hp? Yes, crank, and on a setup with proper intake/manifold/intercooler. They are also talking about crank HP, so probably ~800rwhp. The vette has the worst packaging setup for intakes, intercoolers and manifolds with the restricted hood line.
Camaro/mustang/etc all have much higher hood lines that allow a far better manifold and intercooler setup. So while they are both 2300s, it is the overall system/pacakge and the vette one is lacking for big power.
OK, there my original thought on adding the second pulley system. There is enough space to accomodate this. The pulley on the top, left corver is no longer the tensioner as per factory, but the jackshaft that runs the second pulley system. I use the ECS supercharger tensioner to replace the factory tensioner on the main belt, then use it a second time for the secondary belt.
Before going any further, is the Eaton 2300 capable of producing 1000 HP or not? Where do we need to spin it to?
Man, I thought I had some crazy ******* ideas...
Things to note:
- The power steering reservoir can’t stay where it is in that photo. Magnuson relocates it over to the area at the front of the passenger side cylinder head where you have your secondary tensioner. So, you’re going to have to find somewhere else to relocate it where it’s higher than the pump inlet. Good luck with that.
- you’ll need the later model water pump with the outlet on the drivers side to keep the secondary belt from hitting on the upper radiator hose outlet.
- you’re going to have to engineer some sturdy precision bracketry for your secondary tensioner, which, btw, might end up hitting the hood.
- You’ll obviously need some custom pulleys for the blower as well, unless you just flip it around and space the secondary pulley accordingly.
- Your mosaic is missing the secondary idler that comes with the heartbeat kit. This idler is what provides for enhanced belt wrap to allow sufficient bite on the blower pulley. Properly positioned, your secondary tensioner might be able to provide some additional belt wrap, as the tensioner closes at high rpm when the belts stretches, although that short of a belt might not stretch much at all. My guess is that it will end up slipping, defeating the purpose of the whole exercise.
Your question on what to spin the blower to has been asked and answered already in the other thread.
This thread started out with you wanting to match the power of a C7 ZR1, whilst maintaining longevity and being able to pass emissions compliance standards, which is possible with the heartbeat. Now it’s starting to look like you want a Bugatti beater.
That is 2PSI that you could win if you used a, say NOVI1500 infront of the heartbeat.
OK, thanks. Does anyone have a nice front image of the ECS setup so I can explain what I am thinking?
I stopped doing cost-benefit analyses on my motorsports rubbish a long time ago. My wife was the first person to force me making these and I was close to committing suicide when I looked at these trade-offs.
I got rid of that by just welding and porting out by throttle body adaptor, putting on a NW 102mm TB, and custom made a 4.5” inlet. That picked me up ~1.5psi of boost.
There is no way in hell that I would even think of doing a compound boost setup with a heartbeat and an ECS. That’s just a dumb idea. If I wanted all out HP, I would just go with a Procharger setup with A&A brackets or do an ECS 2200 setup, and sell the Heartbeat.
As for what speed the LS Heartbeat is capable of, see below a post on HP Tuner forums by a very knowledgable guy who has pushed these blowers to their limits (70mm blower pulley with a 10” crank pulley):
Man, I thought I had some crazy ******* ideas...
Things to note:
- The power steering reservoir can’t stay where it is in that photo. Magnuson relocates it over to the area at the front of the passenger side cylinder head where you have your secondary tensioner. So, you’re going to have to find somewhere else to relocate it where it’s higher than the pump inlet. Good luck with that.
- you’ll need the later model water pump with the outlet on the drivers side to keep the secondary belt from hitting on the upper radiator hose outlet.
- you’re going to have to engineer some sturdy precision bracketry for your secondary tensioner, which, btw, might end up hitting the hood.
- You’ll obviously need some custom pulleys for the blower as well, unless you just flip it around and space the secondary pulley accordingly.
- Your mosaic is missing the secondary idler that comes with the heartbeat kit. This idler is what provides for enhanced belt wrap to allow sufficient bite on the blower pulley. Properly positioned, your secondary tensioner might be able to provide some additional belt wrap, as the tensioner closes at high rpm when the belts stretches, although that short of a belt might not stretch much at all. My guess is that it will end up slipping, defeating the purpose of the whole exercise.
Your question on what to spin the blower to has been asked and answered already in the other thread.
This thread started out with you wanting to match the power of a C7 ZR1, whilst maintaining longevity and being able to pass emissions compliance standards, which is possible with the heartbeat. Now it’s starting to look like you want a Bugatti beater.
- power steering reservoir: no issue, worst case I make one myself
- water pump: thanks for the input
- precision brackets: no problemo, see this one which I made for another project - occupied the CNC for 100 hours, do not ask me for a cost-benefit analysis please
- pulleys and belt wrap: for the secondary, I would use a toothed timing HDT belt
There are still some things missing in the picture. I´ve gotten some answers here but this still does not close on the topic of displacement of the short block and boost levels. Is this the map that corresponds to the compressor in the heartbeat?
If so: at 16k rpm this thing is moving 1300 CFM (pressure ratio here does not matter as it is a proper positive displacement supercharger, the pressure ratio is "chosen" by the system behind the compressor, if there are lots of cubic inches, the pressure ratio is low and if there are not so many cubic inches the pressure ratio is higher - the more cubic inches the less compression and the less the temperature rise). An airflow of 1300 CFM corresponds to 650 horsepower (2cfm/rwhp).
You can see that the RPM curves on the blower chart are basically vertical lines (as opposed to a centrifugal blower, where the RPM lines are horizontal as it can "trade in boost for airflow" - not positive displacement but a blower that uses the air´s inertia). In other words, you spin at a certain RPM and the blower puts out a certain massflow of air on the back. The blower does not care what happens behind it - if its a small engine, the pressure is huge (and it may damage the blower as the pressure difference between the bottom and the top of the blower shafts is bending the two compressor shafts to death) - if its a big engine, the pressure is lower. If you want that heartbeat to live, chose the largest possible displacement short block to match up with it.
As for what speed the LS Heartbeat is capable of, see below a post on HP Tuner forums by a very knowledgable guy who has pushed these blowers to their limits (70mm blower pulley with a 10” crank pulley):
Ok, so that comes to 23600 rpm at an engine speed of 6500 rpm. Good reference, thanks. Finally some real numbers to work with.
In my opinion - if you really want reliability (100k miles as a goal) simplicity is your friend. I'd recommend something that has been tried and has been proven reliable. There are many nice reliable builds on this forum.
There are also a lot of very smart folks on this forum, that have tried many different ideas, and tinkered with FI systems for decades.
IMHO, your desire to complicate the crap out of this build (one off type stuff / dual blowers?) will NOT yield you much reliability. Plus trying to cool an iron block, with 2 inter-coolers? Now if you want to tinker with ****, and make it a life long project / experiment (which many people do here and that's cool, part of the hobby), I'd say you're on the right track. But expecting 100k miles from some type of a one of a kind - better design - original build - will not be reliable...
People have tried a lot of crazy stuff here and have some damn solid advice.
Do you want a project, or a reliable car? IMHO, your build path doesn't match your stated goal...
My opinion, worth what you paid for it...
Last edited by Chiselchst; 05-13-2020 at 05:55 PM.
Thanks for these comments. There is still hope that I make the right decisions here I think.
Here is a quick overview matching cubic inches to boost level. This is for spinning the heartbeat to 16000rpm and thus, making about 650 RWHP. An engine with a displacement of 386CUI would see 12PSI from the blower. This can be done without engineering anything and is super reliable in particular with this 388CUI dart short block I mentioned above.
05-12-2020, 05:11 PM
