Just headers or supercharger?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Aliso Viejo California
Just headers or supercharger?
I know this is a simplistic question b/c a SC will no doubt add more hp.
But consideration is needed since I don't know if I really need all the hp from a SC and if there are more inherent risks in screwing up the heads, warranty etc for the greater cost.
I assume:
1) $2400 for headers incl. installation- gain of 25-30 rwhp? Or, $100/hp but a safe bolt-on. [Is this gain real world?]
2) $7200 for SC inc. installation- gain of 120 rwhp, or
$60/hp but perhaps some risk and warranty issues.
More hp than I really need on the streets, but greater blast in daily driving.
Those who have headers chime in.
Those who are waiting for SC your input appreciated, especially if you've had prior experience with C-5 and history of good performance on street and no issues.
SC are supposed to be on the market in the next 30 days- we'll see.
But consideration is needed since I don't know if I really need all the hp from a SC and if there are more inherent risks in screwing up the heads, warranty etc for the greater cost.
I assume:
1) $2400 for headers incl. installation- gain of 25-30 rwhp? Or, $100/hp but a safe bolt-on. [Is this gain real world?]
2) $7200 for SC inc. installation- gain of 120 rwhp, or
$60/hp but perhaps some risk and warranty issues.
More hp than I really need on the streets, but greater blast in daily driving.
Those who have headers chime in.
Those who are waiting for SC your input appreciated, especially if you've had prior experience with C-5 and history of good performance on street and no issues.
SC are supposed to be on the market in the next 30 days- we'll see.
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,067
Likes: 62
From: Houston Texas
It is simply a decision of how far do you want to go. If you are looking to gain 100hp, I would definitely stick with a cam, ported heads, and headers. You can get some very streetable cam's, I know MTI has a stealth cam that has good #s. Heads, cam, headers are the safe bet.
I have done a lot of research on s/c kits, and there are some great ones out there, many for the C5. But as I am sure you know the LS2 is just shy of 11:1 comp., so the engine can only hold a minimum amount of psi safely. I would say no more than 6psi, which would be a little more hp than you would get with heads, cam, headers. Now if you want more, you will need to switch out the heads to get less compression. Now once you get over the 600hp range, you are pushing the bottom end to the max, along with your stock clutch, and forget about traction with street tires. Bottom line is when you get to this level, once you change one thing, you have to change something else. So how far do you want to go?
I have done a lot of research on s/c kits, and there are some great ones out there, many for the C5. But as I am sure you know the LS2 is just shy of 11:1 comp., so the engine can only hold a minimum amount of psi safely. I would say no more than 6psi, which would be a little more hp than you would get with heads, cam, headers. Now if you want more, you will need to switch out the heads to get less compression. Now once you get over the 600hp range, you are pushing the bottom end to the max, along with your stock clutch, and forget about traction with street tires. Bottom line is when you get to this level, once you change one thing, you have to change something else. So how far do you want to go?
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Aliso Viejo California
i've heard the cams make a lot of shaking- unless the MTI stealth one is like stock.
Also re warranty- I think some SC come with a 3 year warranty- once you change heads and cam, the GM warranty might be null and void, something to consider with a 3 year remainder.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
Also re warranty- I think some SC come with a 3 year warranty- once you change heads and cam, the GM warranty might be null and void, something to consider with a 3 year remainder.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 25,343
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From: Frisco, TX
Originally Posted by redfrc
...or SC inc. installation- gain of 120 rwhp, or
$60/hp but perhaps some risk and warranty issues....Those who are waiting for SC your input appreciated, especially if you've had prior experience with C-5 and history of good performance on street and no issues.
SC are supposed to be on the market in the next 30 days- we'll see.
$60/hp but perhaps some risk and warranty issues....Those who are waiting for SC your input appreciated, especially if you've had prior experience with C-5 and history of good performance on street and no issues.
SC are supposed to be on the market in the next 30 days- we'll see.
I'm pretty sure that to gain 120 rwhp on the C5 using any forced induction took more than $7200 if you include installation, and it also depends on where you want the horsepower. The Magnuson, which I had, was more $$ than that. For some odd reason I not once saw the price, installed, for the procharger, but perhaps for the low end kit which might have added that kind of peak horsepower, you could get close to that price????? Also, that price likely fluctuated on whose kit you used and how much was required in "upgrades" to make it actually work reliably over time (i.e., at a minimum, not eat belts). I certainly know the early C5 procharger guys had a lot more in theirs than this price range, and I suspect a good portion of that was chasing down issues that the procharger manufacturer did not solve. Later kits, especiall Andy's of AandA, appeared to solve those problems, but I don't know the installed price of his and I don't know that it's out for the C6, either.
So, if indeed there is a reliable kit that will be at a $7200 installed price and for this hp, I'd jump all over it.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 141
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From: Aliso Viejo California
Steve:
My understanding from 2 local shops is the ProCharger is coming out soon and would cost approx. $6,200 plus installation (estimated at 10 hours installation), which would total up to $7,300-ish.
The shops told me the tuning is being finalized now and the SC's are ready once tuning is accomplished.
I was informed this status was being touted for the last 30 days or so- so the delay in public release for ProCharger was due to the last tuning software issues.
If this isn't the case I should know in the next 2 weeks.
I have ongoing concerns about being a test vette for the first release of the SC since as you stated there are inherent issues that arise.
My understanding from 2 local shops is the ProCharger is coming out soon and would cost approx. $6,200 plus installation (estimated at 10 hours installation), which would total up to $7,300-ish.
The shops told me the tuning is being finalized now and the SC's are ready once tuning is accomplished.
I was informed this status was being touted for the last 30 days or so- so the delay in public release for ProCharger was due to the last tuning software issues.
If this isn't the case I should know in the next 2 weeks.
I have ongoing concerns about being a test vette for the first release of the SC since as you stated there are inherent issues that arise.
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,067
Likes: 62
From: Houston Texas
Originally Posted by redfrc
i've heard the cams make a lot of shaking- unless the MTI stealth one is like stock.
Also re warranty- I think some SC come with a 3 year warranty- once you change heads and cam, the GM warranty might be null and void, something to consider with a 3 year remainder.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
Also re warranty- I think some SC come with a 3 year warranty- once you change heads and cam, the GM warranty might be null and void, something to consider with a 3 year remainder.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
Go to MTI's web site and listen to the stealth cam video.
You should be able to get Andy's kit for the C6 somewhere in the 6-7k range installed, but he said it would be a while before it is ready.
Team Owner
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 25,343
Likes: 222
From: Frisco, TX
Originally Posted by redfrc
Steve:
My understanding from 2 local shops is the ProCharger is coming out soon and would cost approx. $6,200 plus installation (estimated at 10 hours installation), which would total up to $7,300-ish.
The shops told me the tuning is being finalized now and the SC's are ready once tuning is accomplished.
I was informed this status was being touted for the last 30 days or so- so the delay in public release for ProCharger was due to the last tuning software issues.
If this isn't the case I should know in the next 2 weeks.
I have ongoing concerns about being a test vette for the first release of the SC since as you stated there are inherent issues that arise.
My understanding from 2 local shops is the ProCharger is coming out soon and would cost approx. $6,200 plus installation (estimated at 10 hours installation), which would total up to $7,300-ish.
The shops told me the tuning is being finalized now and the SC's are ready once tuning is accomplished.
I was informed this status was being touted for the last 30 days or so- so the delay in public release for ProCharger was due to the last tuning software issues.
If this isn't the case I should know in the next 2 weeks.
I have ongoing concerns about being a test vette for the first release of the SC since as you stated there are inherent issues that arise.
Andy is the one who seemed to perfect the procharger for the C5, so if it were me I'd wait for him or someone darn near comparable before I went with that, as I know there were lots of frustrated folks early on with the procharged C5 and you sound like you're not one in the camp that will be content having to be the guinea pig to resolve those issues. However, as I said before, if indeed they can do it reliably at that price I think it's a great deal and I'd consider it. In my C5, I really enjoyed the low end torque of the Maggie, knowing that I was sacrificing what could've been a peakier hp at the high end with a centrifugal. And, I've never ridden in a procharged car, but certainly some of them seem to have impressive numbers. So, it also depends on what kind of thrill you're seeking. Best of luck, and I'm sure over time there will be lots of C6 alternatives, but it's pretty early in the car's lifecycle and it certainly took some time for the evolution of FI on the C5 (in fact, it's still going
). 
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Texas
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03 thru '10, '17
Originally Posted by redfrc
Also re warranty- I think some SC come with a 3 year warranty- once you change heads and cam, the GM warranty might be null and void, something to consider with a 3 year remainder.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
That's why it seems a SC is a safe bet- but of course it hasn't been time tested just yet.
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Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Houston, TX
Keep in mind some other factors. If you go heads & cam, it's pretty hard to go back to stock. This has a very negative effect on resale value. I would not want a car that had a blower on it either, but if you take the blower off, and take the car to a dealer to trade it, the truth is that they would likely never know it had been modded.
The best bang for the buck, and would have very minimal impact on the warranty and resale, would be headers and a 3.90 gear (assuming six speed - 3.42 with an automatic). That, along with a cold air intake and "cat back" exhaust would set you back around $3,500 and for street driving would make a major difference in the fun factor.
The best bang for the buck, and would have very minimal impact on the warranty and resale, would be headers and a 3.90 gear (assuming six speed - 3.42 with an automatic). That, along with a cold air intake and "cat back" exhaust would set you back around $3,500 and for street driving would make a major difference in the fun factor.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Aliso Viejo California
Jim:
good points re resale- I definitely would sell this car and get a Z06 in the next couple of years.
Perhaps I should "blow off" the blower and stick to headers/intake. Not sure I want the collateral damage in SC mishaps this early on.
The heads/cam thing also could be a deterrent to buyers.
Some people on the D. Corvette forum have done this but I would be curious to see how many have done this and had a reliable dyno gain.
Perhaps I should start a poll to tally up.
good points re resale- I definitely would sell this car and get a Z06 in the next couple of years.
Perhaps I should "blow off" the blower and stick to headers/intake. Not sure I want the collateral damage in SC mishaps this early on.
The heads/cam thing also could be a deterrent to buyers.
Some people on the D. Corvette forum have done this but I would be curious to see how many have done this and had a reliable dyno gain.
Perhaps I should start a poll to tally up.
Safety Car
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,067
Likes: 62
From: Houston Texas
Originally Posted by redfrc
Jim:
good points re resale- I definitely would sell this car and get a Z06 in the next couple of years.
Perhaps I should "blow off" the blower and stick to headers/intake. Not sure I want the collateral damage in SC mishaps this early on.
The heads/cam thing also could be a deterrent to buyers.
Some people on the D. Corvette forum have done this but I would be curious to see how many have done this and had a reliable dyno gain.
Perhaps I should start a poll to tally up.
good points re resale- I definitely would sell this car and get a Z06 in the next couple of years.
Perhaps I should "blow off" the blower and stick to headers/intake. Not sure I want the collateral damage in SC mishaps this early on.
The heads/cam thing also could be a deterrent to buyers.
Some people on the D. Corvette forum have done this but I would be curious to see how many have done this and had a reliable dyno gain.
Perhaps I should start a poll to tally up.
As far as the dyno, I have seen 440 to 460rwhp with heads, cam, and headers.
Team Owner
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 26,714
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From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by vertC6
This is simply not true, it just depends on your buyer. Some simply want a stock corvette others who love to have one with the mods. If I see a 500+ hp vette for sale it would get my attention.
As far as the dyno, I have seen 440 to 460rwhp with heads, cam, and headers.
As far as the dyno, I have seen 440 to 460rwhp with heads, cam, and headers.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 487
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From: bowie md
Originally Posted by vertC6
This is simply not true, it just depends on your buyer. Some simply want a stock corvette others who love to have one with the mods. If I see a 500+ hp vette for sale it would get my attention.
As far as the dyno, I have seen 440 to 460rwhp with heads, cam, and headers.
As far as the dyno, I have seen 440 to 460rwhp with heads, cam, and headers.
440-460 is pretty impressive. VertC6, I agree with your comments above.
Racer
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: bowie md
Originally Posted by SteveL2
Thanks for updating my knowledge. Andy is the one who seemed to perfect the procharger for the C5, so if it were me I'd wait for him or someone darn near comparable before I went with that, as I know there were lots of frustrated folks early on with the procharged C5 and you sound like you're not one in the camp that will be content having to be the guinea pig to resolve those issues. However, as I said before, if indeed they can do it reliably at that price I think it's a great deal and I'd consider it. In my C5, I really enjoyed the low end torque of the Maggie, knowing that I was sacrificing what could've been a peakier hp at the high end with a centrifugal. And, I've never ridden in a procharged car, but certainly some of them seem to have impressive numbers. So, it also depends on what kind of thrill you're seeking.
Best of luck, and I'm sure over time there will be lots of C6 alternatives, but it's pretty early in the car's lifecycle and it certainly took some time for the evolution of FI on the C5 (in fact, it's still going ).
Andy is the one who seemed to perfect the procharger for the C5, so if it were me I'd wait for him or someone darn near comparable before I went with that, as I know there were lots of frustrated folks early on with the procharged C5 and you sound like you're not one in the camp that will be content having to be the guinea pig to resolve those issues. However, as I said before, if indeed they can do it reliably at that price I think it's a great deal and I'd consider it. In my C5, I really enjoyed the low end torque of the Maggie, knowing that I was sacrificing what could've been a peakier hp at the high end with a centrifugal. And, I've never ridden in a procharged car, but certainly some of them seem to have impressive numbers. So, it also depends on what kind of thrill you're seeking. Best of luck, and I'm sure over time there will be lots of C6 alternatives, but it's pretty early in the car's lifecycle and it certainly took some time for the evolution of FI on the C5 (in fact, it's still going
). Steve,
I wonder about the Procharger setup on the C6. Because the C6 has such strong low-mid range torque compared to the LS1/LS2, I wonder if the Procharger will be the best setup for the C6. I just couldn't see the C6 tires handling Mag torque.
Team Owner
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From: Texas
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I just sold my C5 here on the Corvetteforum. I followed the section closely for about 2 months. The highly modded cars MIGHT sell for the same $$ as a car of the same year and mileage. You will NOT get your mod money back and it will take longer to sell it. They often sell for less than a 100% stock car. I would not do serious mods unless:
1. I was going to keep it a long time
2. I was rich and didn't mind donating to someone elses hobby
1. I was going to keep it a long time
2. I was rich and didn't mind donating to someone elses hobby