so i am back in the market for my next mod on my M6 daily driver. i passed up gears last time in favor of my LG longtubes. correct decision.

so now i have the honker, LG's, bullets, LS2 Edit, and lots of suspension/tire goodies to improve handling. given where i am at now, i am still wondering where my money is best spent next, as this may very well be the last mod i will do to this car (kids are in the near future now ).

given that i have already opened up much of the breathing i would think that a nice lopey cam would serve me well, but i dont want to lose ANY low end torque. i really like how the power comes on, i just want some more of it. when i get squirrely with the car, its usually at higher speeds. i like to play in the 30mph / 3500 rpm and higher range, so while acceleration from a deadstop isnt very important to me at all, i still want to be able to dart into traffic with some gusto if i need to. will a moderate to slightly aggressive cam kill my low end entirely?

if so, maybe gears would serve me better.

from a cost (including install) perspective...which is going to be more expensive?

any input or experience with having to make a similar decision would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

 

Go with the gears...Although its not Horsepower, its quickness that it will bring. A cam will only give you that choppy sound and you wont see much HP increase unless coupled with an intake or heads or both. In fact, you might experience the car going slower because you might lose some torque on the low end. Lastly, with the 4.10's unless you know how to race, you might find yourself spinning the tires if launched to aggressively which will...You guessed it, make the car slower. If you have an A6, this will be a GREAT mod for you! Good Luck!

 

Gears installed with a hardened output shaft will cost you about $1,500 installed.
Gears obviously add no power and do not make your car sound better, sure it will be a tad quicker, but no one will notice them but you. Stop at a red light with a nice lopey cam and you'll be noticed, I promise
I know which one I'm doing in a week or two...
A cam/springs/gaskets, etc will cost just under $1000. The labor and tune can run another $1000. Put it in yourself and save a bundle, it's easy and can be a nice weekend project.

 

Watching this thread closely as i am in the same exact position as you, even down to the kids...

 

Based upon your comments, I'd go with the cam. You like to run from a 30mph and up roll - you have six gears to work with anyway. Just keep it in the rpm range that works with the cam, and the additional horsepower from the cam will make the car faster.

 

I would go with gears then heads / cam.

 

I was around in the muscle car era. when 4.10 gears were the rave. You need to remember though muncie 4 speeds had a 2.20 first gear times 4.10 you have an overall of 9.02. Now take your modern era 6sp z51 ratio of 2.97 first gear, times the standard 3.42 and you get 10.15 overall in first. This is why these cars acclerate so hard with stock ratios. Some of these cars run 10 sec with 3.42's. I don't think it's the gears you need so much as the power increase to accelerate the car.
With todays 6sp you get the best of both worlds. I can tell you this ;that if LPE,A&A,and LG thought that gears were necessary to make there cars perform at there best they would recomend them, but they don't. Ever wonder why? If you really feel you need them, by all means get them. We only needed 4.10's back then because we didn't have the transmission technology they have today. Put your money in the motor. my .02 cents

 

Gears are 1500 installed but the cam is going to run a bit more with the springs, tune, and labor. The cam isnt likely to go in even in 1/2 the time.

The torquer II from texas speed is the way to go: 232/234 .595/ .598 112LSA. Andy at A&A and a bunch of people on LS1tech had awesome results with it (430-440 rwhp with stock heads and the FAST). Some loss in low end responsiveness and a drop in DCR (less TQ) would suggest that the gears should come first. It adds a pull everywhere unlike the cam which is only up top.

I once again see some individuals stating that you can downshift in an effort to minimize the benefit from gears. I will once again say that I think the statemnet is silly and here is why: There is no gear under first to downshift to. Also, when getting on the car and taking each gear to redline, you cant get to redline and downshift. Basically once you wind a gear, you're done with it sir. Being in the power band of any particular gear is still faster with 4.10's than with 3.42's....end of story.

A last comment on traction. It is true you will break the tires loose easier but with 4.10's it will rehook sooner due to slower spinning tires. Gears help you hook faster. If you are arguing that gears will give the car a mechanical advatage that will slip the tires more than all I have to say is so will any power mod. Gear your car and stop adding power when you can't get it to the ground with your choice of tire. Those that try to make a ton of power up top and dont want to have gears because it hurts traction simply wind up building dyno queens with no low end grunt. If you find with 4.10's that you already have too much power to hook, stop there. You will basically find that most cars with gears in the 400-440range and 4.10's are faster than 500rwhp and 3.42's. Those type of cars bog down low and spin after 4k rpms going nowhere.

 

That is the cam I bought. Haven't had time to slip it in yet though. A&A actually got 447 RWHP without a FAST, which is amazing. I'm figuring that 430 is about the norm.
I went with the 113 LSA, I wanted the top end a bit higher in the RPM's than the 112 and more lope than the 114. Seemed like the perfect match to me. I'll report back my numbers when I get the time to install it.

 

Good deal but I would want the 112 for the increased DCR. I have HPtuners and a tuning patch to get the idle right on that cam if you want to meet up after its done. Shoot me a PM.

 

Mayo, I just noticed your location statement

"Prepare yourself, for a pride obliterating bich smack."

Thats priceless and I promise to use it before the day is out!!

 

DCR = ???

:o

 

My last cam was on a 112 and peak HP gain was at 4,500. I need more revs for the track.
Where do you live?

Dave

 

If this cam is a longer duration you moved the power band up from that alone. On a 112 is will still be pulling past 7k. The difference is only 200rpm.

 

****, I forgot it was a reverse split cam. The Torquer 2 is not. I'm sending it back right away. Thanks for making me think.

 

If you leave the static compression alone by not using milled heads or a thinner set of gaskets then putting in a bigger cam will result in a later intake valve closing point and thus a lowered dynamic compression that kills low end TQ and lowers HP by about 14hp per point. This is why huge cams can run 12:1 compression on pump gas.

 

A good salesman learns to listen to what his customer says before making a recommendation. Go back and read his first post. He says he likes to play in the 30mph/3500rpm and up category. You don't need a lower first gear for that.

 

...and upwards of redline you can't downshift...I suggest you take your own advice and read it yourself. The point is that going from his prefered 3500 and up is faster in any chosen gear with 4.10's than with 3.42's. Every person that has them will agree as they have on every other thread you posted that same statement on.

I find it interesting how you chose to quote only the part that helps your argument so I will post the rest of it for you. Great salesmaen also know when to hide important facts that don't support their case right?
Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 30mph and above 3500 to redline within the scope of that statement? Is it true that 3500 rpm and up with 4.10's is going to be faster than 3500 with 3.42's?

I guess if you didn't get it the last 3 times I said that, then you arent going to ever get it. I suggest you go for a ride in a car with 4.10's and stop making silly downshift statements. I want to see you redline in 2nd and shift to 3rd then at 4500 and see if you can downshift. Gears are also independant of rpm for effect. They pull stronger everywhere. Its just a debate and I value everyones opinion. I just dont know where you got you info from because it didn't come from a regeared corvette ride.

One last point is that in every other post you commented on gears, you stated that they were a waste because you could just downshift (no rpm special cases).

here is an example that couldnt be further from the truth:

 

So Spin... are you suggesting, when using this type of cam, that heads be re-milled or thinner gaskets used to bump the CR, so you get the torque back down low AND the pull up top, or is that a waste of money?

Then what about the same question, with new heads (say AFR 205s). Thanks.

Also, can you get the higher CR with a gasket sawp, or is milling necessary?


Also, I'd like to chime in on the gears question. I believe the 4.10s are the ideal ratio because they have the effect, on the M12 trans, of bumping each gear up nearly to the next cog. That is to say, if you did most of your work in 2-3, you now do it in 3-4. I do most of my canyon balsting in Second, and I really wih the car had another 10mph in that gear. The 4.10s, in 3rd, will give you that range.

Plus you have a real stumper out of the hole which solves a lot of wheelhop / clutch control problems for guys that just can't get that right (me). I am damn good on a road course or in the canyons, but I plain suck when it comes to getting off the line and no amount of practice seems to help. The 4.10s will help in this regard when you are up against an A6 car, which WILL hand you your a$$ if you are not careful.

The beauty of 4.10s is, if you are not in romp'n'stomp mode, just start off in 2nd and it's just like the old 2.67 ratio on the C5. Also, 4.10s are steep enough you can get to your old top speed in 6th, if that is important for bragging rights.

All that said, I would hate to spend $1,500 on gears only to have the apparently weak '05 case frag itself... then again, if it's gonna break, it'll be with axle hop, which should be lessened, and it will probably go anyway. Life is short.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, and me to mine. I dissagree with you. Horsepower ultimately wins races. Gearing certainly has some effect, but only to a point. Look at the 1/4 mile difference between a Z51 and non-Z51 - 1/10th. Exactly what I suggested. And I stand behind my statement that gears give a seat of the pants feel, but very little in ulimate times.

You say that I didn't get my information from someone who has "regeared". Okay, you show me how much someone picked up in the 1/4 mile with gears alone.

This is what forums are all about. Everyone has a basis for their opinion, and ultimately the buyer will have to make his decision.