Oh boy we opened the can again No matter how you cut it ..... it will always come back to TM/ abuse mode

 

Sorry, my fault I was typing a quick & dirty reply. We only put it on in staging lanes. The guys with the really fast cars would be really pissed if anyone put it on anywhere near the burnout box .....almost as bad as driving throught the water with street tires

 

as some know, i don't mind debating the "TM" effect.

one thing i've noticed through this discussion is launch technique and tm, different technique and different tm effects. hhmmm.. wonder if it's related ......but not as some would believe.

i believe though, we have concluded and it is pretty much agreed by all, that the automatic transmission cars have some sort of TM. however, I will attempt to discern if it is tm that is effecting their times or the launch technique.

is it at all possible that the 'shock' that was described in the above quote is what some are experiencing and calling TM ? since it would have the most effect in the 60'. isn't that where they say tm takes it's toll ?

if the car experienced too much sudden shock it simply lurches forward (do to the sudden weight transfer) and then rebounds and then recovers.

'flashing' the convertor, as defined earlier, would be one technique that would have the most lurch and rebound effect. especially the better the traction.

 

Zig, it's hard to tell which is more inane --- the musclehead quote, your questions, or your theories.

Is it at all possible that you don't have a clue?

 

sure, it's possible

but at the same time, it's also possible that i do know what i'm talking about.

hey, if you can explain actions, reactions, and effects in such a way that it supports you comments then great, please don't just jump in and make unsupported comments. all-in-good-fun

 

With regard to unsupported comments, I would respect your opinions much more if they were based on real-world experience at the track, not by obsure and/or outdated articles garnered from Google searches.

I was at the track last weekend, in my A6. I reported my actual launch times, which were very much in synch with the other posts I have seen posted in this thread and elsewhere. Most of us who have been to the track, and experienced A6 launches firsthand, are in general agreement about what works and what doesn't.

Your posts are completely different. They usually begin with a quote from a magazine article, then go on to your interpretation of what this information might or might not "really" mean, then end with a bunch of hypothetical and/or theoretical questions that serve only to open the door to more debate.

This is not really informative or constructive at all. AND, it's also not much fun.

 

regarding real world experience. no problem.

i will run my car against ANYBODY, did you hear that ANYONE. it doesn't matter to me, i might not win everytime but i'm sure gonna have fun trying.

ok, fine, again not a problem, but it was my understanding that we were talking about launch techniques and their effects.

if everyone else is using the same technique i would expect similiar times/results.

don't you mean, what works for you.

open the door to more debate, isn't that the purpose, maybe just maybe we will be able to glean something from the discussion.

i'm sorry you feel this way, 'if you don't like what's on tv, change the channel'

 

would you mind explaining why your technique works the way it does.

i do that in an attempt to show that i am not the only one that 'believes' a specific way.

i do that as an attempt to share my 'understanding'. if it is incorrect, i'm open to discussion.

 

Once again we are beating an issue to death but......... Hey Zig so what times have you run with your car ? Stock ? modded ? and how did you launch it to run whatever times you have recorded. Sixty foot, 330 & 1000 as well as 1/4 would be fine

I am not going to discuss TM because I realize it exists (in my A4) and there are others who say it is so lets just talk launch techinques.

 

Zig what are your sixty foot times?

 

i apologize if i missed it, but are your times corrected or uncorrected ?

http://www.hardtail.com/techtips/altitude.html

under what conditions were the runs made ?

tires, traction, air temp, humidity, etc. etc.

i prefer heads-up raceing, to 'time-slip' raceing.

there are so many things that can impact a good run, launch being one, that i'd rather not get into a bickering match over times.

i'd rather bicker over why a lauch technique or method works the way it does.

don't get me wrong, if you require some time slips before we can continue the discussion, as soon as i finish my exhaust, i run over to one of my local 'strips' and get some current slips for you, would that be acceptable ?

 

see my response to shurite44, same answer.

agreed, the can of worms got opened, and i simply asked a question if it might be possible that the tm effect folks are experiencing may be related to the effects of their launch technique.

i propossed that a 'lurch' launch would cause the suspension to unload, rebound, and recover, which in turn would effect the 60 and 330 ft times.

 

[QUOTE=Zig]i apologize if i missed it, but are your times corrected or uncorrected?

I prefer heads-up racing, to 'time-slip' racing.

QUOTE]



It's obvious that you cannot even spell "racing".

I'd sure like to know what track you go to where you do this "heads-up racing", where they don't give out time slips. I'd also like to know how you can analyze launch techniques and their effect on 60 and 330 ft times without looking at time slips.

Methinks that you have NO real-world track experience at all.

 

, i before e except after c....aaarrrrr....

does that imply you'd like to 'play', if we ever made it to the same track ?

wtf...i already said, if you want current corrected slips i'll go get some.

and your information is provided in what format ??
your interpretation of your provided information causes one to conclude what ???

you are welcome too have your own opinion.

 

Actually I just want to know what you sixty foot is. I thought that would explain why you think there is no TM.

My times are not corrected when I post them. I do log temp, humidity, and baro, and I know track elev. though, so I could correct them. I don't really need to do that though, because I just use the wx to predict my next ET. I could care less what I am running at sea level. I have posted DA with times before but I usually don't.

Right now I run DR's, I have about 20 to 30 runs on stock runflats also. Traction is good at both tracks I race at, rarely spin even with runflats.

I don't need your time slip, I believe what you post.

Anyway what sort of sixty's are you running. My fastest so far has been a 1.955. I think that is it, my data is out in my building. My C5 with no TM tuning, vararam and a catback ran 1.83 sixty with me driving.

Oh I guess I should comment on the heads up vs time slip racing. Well not sure how well I would do against an 11.5 car but most likely he will beat me by around 75 yds or so. Heads up racing gets old quick when the guy has a faster car.

A bracket race is set up to be a tie. Almost every race is very close, and it is quite exciting. If you like heads up racing then the time trials would be fun for you, or test and tune night. That bores me, I like competition. I also am a retired military aviator and I really enjoy doing the performance calculations and predicting performance.

 

my apologies, i got a little wound up from some of the other exchanges.

didn't mean to come across so aggressive.

this may sound counter, but, i don't nessecarily disbelieve in TM.

i do believe in the existance in a TM type of or even function in the 'automatic transmission' models.

i'm just not sure sure of it's existance in the manuals.

i've got many questions that may or may not help determine if and how it may work or exist in the manuals, but, i seem to have a hard time getting a thorough discussion completed.

for example;

if tm uses any type of 'driveline' sensor, we should be able to locate the connection by reviewing a wiring schematic.

we know who manufactures the driveline components, does their product line include any information related to tm ?

are those products, if any, used on the corvette ?

if tm uses airflow readings we should be able to 'tweak' the tm effect by modifing airflow.

if tm is felt only during shifts can it be explained by the release and reapplication of power (the shift itself) ?

if tm is only felt during hard launches, what in the method of launch could cause the tm feeling ?

'driveline shock', 'lurch launch', 'traction issues', 'airflow/power production', 'etc.' will effect results, each in the own unique ways.

being able to correct them would allow us to compare using a 'common' base. just as dyno results need to be corrected before we can compare, so do timeslips.

do you notice any difference in performs between the two types of rubber ? air pressure, etc. ?

i know the feeling, my 'data' is packed up out in the shed, i'll need to see if i can dig it out...but then again i need to finish my exhaust. hopefully, soon....

when you refer to tm tuning, does that mean that only the tm limits were raised or that 'other' items were 'tuned' as well, i.e spark advance, timing, etc.



although, properly matched heads-up is a blast.

bracket racing equals the field, just as corrected timeslips do. hehehehe.. couldn't resist, actually didn't think of it until i was already typing.

aahhhh.... an engineer at heart

 

Thanks for the apology, you did catch me a little off guard but I know you get in some action packed discussions here, so no biggy.

My launch really does not test the tire much. I could run 35 lbs in these DR's and they would not spin. But I do run 24 cold rear and 38 cold front just out of habit. That gives me some advantages and it does not set off the DIC warning.

I had a hypertech hand held tuner. According to the hypertech people their unit did not effect the torque management in the C5. hypertech was a one size fits all performance tune. It worked very well on a stock C5.

I did notice TM in the C5 when I went to race tires though. It started to occasionally fall on its face when they hooked. But I really feel it in the A6. I do think you can drive around it a little though. I am starting to learn how I think. Thanks to CF member Dennis's advice.

For reference my vette's have all been A4's and A6.

 

Hey Zig uncorrected time slips are fine, as previously stated in another post it will give us something to compare. Mine are posted in various threads (if you would like I can post several again) and yes it would help the discussion since we have already spoken about launching automatics.

My time slips reflect leaving from an idle with approximately 26 psi in the rear tires, no dry hop, no flashing the converter and no coolant temperature management. Next time out I plan on heating the tires, flashing the converter, and keeping the engine temps down to see what happens.

 

If you are leaving from idle or slight above, then applying full throttle, that is what I refer to as flashing the converter. The term refers to the fact that by doing this, the converter will actually achieve a higher RPM launch (very briefly) than its rated stall speed.

If you are pressing the brake and the throttle simulataneously to raise the RPMs up to the stall speed of the converter, this is what Zig referred to in his post as brake torqueing.

 

I also recommend taking a wx measuring instrument and logging temp, rel humidity, and the local altimeter or barometer.

It really is hard to tell what your car is doing performance wise if you do not have a record of the wx conditions.

My car goes up and down 5 tenths depending on wx.

But with my records I can take a quick weather reading a predict within a couple hundreds of a second what I will run on my first time trial. That is when you start to have a feel for performance enhancements and what they are doing or not doing for your car.

Weather conditions cause my sixty foots to vary nearly 2 tenths from mid summer till now.