160 Thermostat
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
You can get them right here on the forum, click on Corvette Store at the top left. $22.95 plus tax and shipping, total cost to me was $32.60. THe vendor is Zip Products, and they ship very quickly. You can also get them a little bit cheaper on EBay, new from Lingenfelter.
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 53,529
Likes: 77
From: Arizona
Originally Posted by Angelo C6
I understand the benefits fo the cooler engine temperature at the track, but will there be any issues (mileage or warranty) having the colder stat on a daily driver?
The car is designed to run at the higher temp, but apparently there is some more HP if you can keep it in your lower range.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 53,282
Likes: 3
From: God Bless America
I just did this install in mine along with a shifter change. The car runs cooler now than what it did before during normal driving. I am curious if I will need to change the setting for the electric fans to help keep the car running at a cooler temperature all the time. The main reason I did this change is because performance is effected when the LS2 gets a little heated.
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Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: Houston
I agree with the lower temp = better performance as I learned from a fellow forum poster. I can't remember the post but he said if your water temp is greater than 185-190 or less than 170 you will not have peak power. I recently went to the 1/4 mile where I was previously running 13.2 the week before with temp 195-205 and decided to let the car cool to 170 or so. I dropped to 12.8 on my first 2 runs followed by a 12.6. I was so happy.
The only problem (as most of you know) is the stock thermostat shoots the temp to 195 (as it is designed) so quickly that there is only a small window of time for temps to be in optimum range. I have sinced order a 160 thermostat and will take it from there. I'm sure setting the fans to come on early will optimize and eventually a bigger radiator. I will probably never do the radiator swap as I'm not that hardcore. I'm in for easy/cheap(er) HP if there is such a thing. I will eventually get a tune when I finish other planned mods which will also address the electric fans.
I love free HP!!
The only problem (as most of you know) is the stock thermostat shoots the temp to 195 (as it is designed) so quickly that there is only a small window of time for temps to be in optimum range. I have sinced order a 160 thermostat and will take it from there. I'm sure setting the fans to come on early will optimize and eventually a bigger radiator. I will probably never do the radiator swap as I'm not that hardcore. I'm in for easy/cheap(er) HP if there is such a thing. I will eventually get a tune when I finish other planned mods which will also address the electric fans.
I love free HP!!
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 53,529
Likes: 77
From: Arizona
Originally Posted by 30YR W8T
I just did this install in mine along with a shifter change. The car runs cooler now than what it did before during normal driving. I am curious if I will need to change the setting for the electric fans to help keep the car running at a cooler temperature all the time. The main reason I did this change is because performance is effected when the LS2 gets a little heated.
Now for drag racing, a lower stat, extra fans and ice may help short term. And for drag racing maybe that's all you need to get that extra HP.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: Houston
Originally Posted by Hoonose
The problem is, is that at high output the motor will make so much heat, that the temp will end up at basically the same high point as with the stock thermostat. Maybe it runs a smidge cooler with everyday driving, but there you don't need max HP. You would need more fans or radiator to keep the end point temps down when running at high output for any length of time.
Now for drag racing, a lower stat, extra fans and ice may help short term. And for drag racing maybe that's all you need to get that extra HP.
Now for drag racing, a lower stat, extra fans and ice may help short term. And for drag racing maybe that's all you need to get that extra HP.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by chempowr
I agree with the lower temp = better performance...
I love free HP!!
I love free HP!!
lower intake air temp the better the power production.
the 'cooling system' is designed to prevent preignition/detonation, nothing more.
i know, preignition and detonation are two different animals. however, they both fall into the same 'uncontrolled' combustion category.
preignition/detonation can be slowed by using higher octane and or by reducing the amount of heat retained in the heads and block.
the ecm will pull 'timing' based upon it's 'feedback' from the appropriate sensors.
a lower temp. therm. will NOT produce more power. it simply changes when/ if 'timing' gets pulled due to preignition.
'icing' the intake works, not because it's cooling the heads or combustion chambers, because it's not. 'icing' the intake attempts to cool the 'large hot air pocket' that is developed in the intake. a hot intake will build a 'hot air pocket' that the intake air must pass through on it's way into the combustion chamber.
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
From: Houston
Originally Posted by Zig
agreed, however, it's not what you think.
lower intake air temp the better the power production.
the 'cooling system' is designed to prevent preignition/detonation, nothing more.
i know, preignition and detonation are two different animals. however, they both fall into the same 'uncontrolled' combustion category.
preignition/detonation can be slowed by using higher octane and or by reducing the amount of heat retained in the heads and block.
the ecm will pull 'timing' based upon it's 'feedback' from the appropriate sensors.
a lower temp. therm. will NOT produce more power. it simply changes when/ if 'timing' gets pulled due to preignition.
'icing' the intake works, not because it's cooling the heads or combustion chambers, because it's not. 'icing' the intake attempts to cool the 'large hot air pocket' that is developed in the intake. a hot intake will build a 'hot air pocket' that the intake air must pass through on it's way into the combustion chamber.
lower intake air temp the better the power production.
the 'cooling system' is designed to prevent preignition/detonation, nothing more.
i know, preignition and detonation are two different animals. however, they both fall into the same 'uncontrolled' combustion category.
preignition/detonation can be slowed by using higher octane and or by reducing the amount of heat retained in the heads and block.
the ecm will pull 'timing' based upon it's 'feedback' from the appropriate sensors.
a lower temp. therm. will NOT produce more power. it simply changes when/ if 'timing' gets pulled due to preignition.
'icing' the intake works, not because it's cooling the heads or combustion chambers, because it's not. 'icing' the intake attempts to cool the 'large hot air pocket' that is developed in the intake. a hot intake will build a 'hot air pocket' that the intake air must pass through on it's way into the combustion chamber.
I can't wait to try the icing the intake trick.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 53,282
Likes: 3
From: God Bless America
Icing the intake does work, I saw this trick for real when a friend of mine was trying to get his 02 TA into the low thirteens. His first pass was 13.56 @ 104, second was 13.52 @ 105, and before he ran for the third time he put a bag of ice on the intake and let the car sit for about two hours. His third pass was a 13.29 @ 107 mph. I watched each run and the prep was almost the same along with reaction time. The changes he has made to the car is replacing the stock 10 bolt with a 12 bolt and he is running DR's. Engine wise this car is stock.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by chempowr
I agree. I just wanted to emphasize how much the C6 loses when it is at facotry operating temp.
I can't wait to try the icing the intake trick.
I can't wait to try the icing the intake trick.
Spark Plugs Overview
ngksparkplugs.ca
Spark plugs are the "window" into your engine (your only eyewitness to the combustion chamber), and can be used as a valuable diagnostic tool. Like a patient's thermometer, the spark plug displays symptoms and conditions of the engine's performance. The experienced tuner can analyze these symptoms to track down the root cause of many problems, or to determine air/fuel ratios.
Spark Plug Basics:
The spark plug has two primary functions:
To ignite the air/fuel mixture.
To remove heat from the combustion chamber.
The temperature of the spark plug's firing end must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called "Thermal Performance", and is determined by the heat range selected.
It is important to remember that spark plugs do not create heat, they can only remove heat. The spark plug works as a heat exchanger by pulling unwanted thermal energy away from the combustion chamber, and transferring the heat to the engine's cooling system. The heat range is defined as a plug's ability to dissipate heat.
A spark plug's heat range has no relationship to the actual voltage transferred though the spark plug. Rather, the heat range is a measure of the spark plug's ability to remove heat from the combustion chamber. The heat range measurement is determined by several factors; the length of the ceramic center insulator nose and its' ability to absorb and transfer combustion heat, the material composition of the insulator and center electrode material
Whether the spark plugs are fitted in a lawnmower, boat, or a race car, the spark plug tip temperature must remain between 500C-850°C. If the tip temperature is lower than 500°C, the insulator area surrounding the center electrode will not be hot enough to burn off carbon and combustion chamber deposits.
These accumulated deposits can result in spark plug fouling leading to misfire. If the tip temperature is higher than 850°C the spark plug will overheat which may cause the ceramic around the center electrode to blister and the electrodes to melt. This may lead to pre-ignition/detonation and expensive engine damage. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one heat range to the next is the ability to remove approximately 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber. A projected style spark plug firing tip temperature is increased by 10°C to 20°C. additional ?
Conversely, a cold spark plug has a shorter insulator nose and absorbs more combustion chamber heat. This heat travels a shorter distance, and allows the plug to operate at a lower internal temperature. A colder heat range is necessary when the engine is modified for performance, subjected to heavy loads, or is run at high rpms for a significant period of time. The colder type removes heat more quickly, and will reduce the chance of pre-ignition/detonation and melting or damage to the firing end. (Engine temperature can affect the spark plug's operating temperature, but not the spark plugs heat range).
or how much heat it can transfer ?
Types of Abnormal Combustion:
Pre-ignition
Defined as: ignition of the air/fuel mixture before the pre-set ignition timing mark
Caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber...can be caused (or amplified) by over advanced timing, too hot a spark plug, low octane fuel, lean air/fuel mixture, too high compression, or insufficient engine cooling
A change to a higher octane fuel, a colder plug, richer fuel mixture, or lower compression may be in order
You may also need to retard ignition timing, and check vehicle's cooling system
Pre-ignition usually leads to detonation; pre-ignition an detonation are two separate events
Detonation
The spark plug's worst enemy! (Besides fouling)
Can break insulators or break off ground electrodes
Pre-ignition most often leads to detonation
Plug tip temperatures can spike to over 3000°F during the combustion process (in a racing engine)
Most frequently caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber.
Hot spots will allow the air/fuel mixture to pre-ignite. As the piston is being forced upward by mechanical action of the connecting rod, the pre-ignited explosion will try to force the piston downward. If the piston can't go up (because of the force of the premature explosion) and it can't go down (because of the upward mo-tion of the connecting rod), the piston will rattle from side to side. The resulting shock wave causes an audible pinging sound. This is detonation.
Most of the damage than an engine sustains when "detonating" is from excessive heat
The spark plug is damaged by both the elevated temperatures and the accompanying shock wave, or concussion
http://www.ngksparkplugs.ca/tech_spoverview.cfm
ngksparkplugs.ca
Spark plugs are the "window" into your engine (your only eyewitness to the combustion chamber), and can be used as a valuable diagnostic tool. Like a patient's thermometer, the spark plug displays symptoms and conditions of the engine's performance. The experienced tuner can analyze these symptoms to track down the root cause of many problems, or to determine air/fuel ratios.
Spark Plug Basics:
The spark plug has two primary functions:
To ignite the air/fuel mixture.
To remove heat from the combustion chamber.
The temperature of the spark plug's firing end must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called "Thermal Performance", and is determined by the heat range selected.
It is important to remember that spark plugs do not create heat, they can only remove heat. The spark plug works as a heat exchanger by pulling unwanted thermal energy away from the combustion chamber, and transferring the heat to the engine's cooling system. The heat range is defined as a plug's ability to dissipate heat.
A spark plug's heat range has no relationship to the actual voltage transferred though the spark plug. Rather, the heat range is a measure of the spark plug's ability to remove heat from the combustion chamber. The heat range measurement is determined by several factors; the length of the ceramic center insulator nose and its' ability to absorb and transfer combustion heat, the material composition of the insulator and center electrode material
Whether the spark plugs are fitted in a lawnmower, boat, or a race car, the spark plug tip temperature must remain between 500C-850°C. If the tip temperature is lower than 500°C, the insulator area surrounding the center electrode will not be hot enough to burn off carbon and combustion chamber deposits.
These accumulated deposits can result in spark plug fouling leading to misfire. If the tip temperature is higher than 850°C the spark plug will overheat which may cause the ceramic around the center electrode to blister and the electrodes to melt. This may lead to pre-ignition/detonation and expensive engine damage. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one heat range to the next is the ability to remove approximately 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber. A projected style spark plug firing tip temperature is increased by 10°C to 20°C. additional ?
Conversely, a cold spark plug has a shorter insulator nose and absorbs more combustion chamber heat. This heat travels a shorter distance, and allows the plug to operate at a lower internal temperature. A colder heat range is necessary when the engine is modified for performance, subjected to heavy loads, or is run at high rpms for a significant period of time. The colder type removes heat more quickly, and will reduce the chance of pre-ignition/detonation and melting or damage to the firing end. (Engine temperature can affect the spark plug's operating temperature, but not the spark plugs heat range).
or how much heat it can transfer ?
Types of Abnormal Combustion:
Pre-ignition
Defined as: ignition of the air/fuel mixture before the pre-set ignition timing mark
Caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber...can be caused (or amplified) by over advanced timing, too hot a spark plug, low octane fuel, lean air/fuel mixture, too high compression, or insufficient engine cooling
A change to a higher octane fuel, a colder plug, richer fuel mixture, or lower compression may be in order
You may also need to retard ignition timing, and check vehicle's cooling system
Pre-ignition usually leads to detonation; pre-ignition an detonation are two separate events
Detonation
The spark plug's worst enemy! (Besides fouling)
Can break insulators or break off ground electrodes
Pre-ignition most often leads to detonation
Plug tip temperatures can spike to over 3000°F during the combustion process (in a racing engine)
Most frequently caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber.
Hot spots will allow the air/fuel mixture to pre-ignite. As the piston is being forced upward by mechanical action of the connecting rod, the pre-ignited explosion will try to force the piston downward. If the piston can't go up (because of the force of the premature explosion) and it can't go down (because of the upward mo-tion of the connecting rod), the piston will rattle from side to side. The resulting shock wave causes an audible pinging sound. This is detonation.
Most of the damage than an engine sustains when "detonating" is from excessive heat
The spark plug is damaged by both the elevated temperatures and the accompanying shock wave, or concussion
http://www.ngksparkplugs.ca/tech_spoverview.cfm
Last edited by Zig; Oct 8, 2006 at 11:48 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
Originally Posted by Hoonose
The problem is, is that at high output the motor will make so much heat, that the temp will end up at basically the same high point as with the stock thermostat. Maybe it runs a smidge cooler with everyday driving, but there you don't need max HP. You would need more fans or radiator to keep the end point temps down when running at high output for any length of time.
Now for drag racing, a lower stat, extra fans and ice may help short term. And for drag racing maybe that's all you need to get that extra HP.
Now for drag racing, a lower stat, extra fans and ice may help short term. And for drag racing maybe that's all you need to get that extra HP.
Zig is partially correct about the temps. Optimal power is achieved when the coolant temps AND the ambient air temps coming into the intake are low. See some of Chuck's (Corvettes of Westchester) posts on this. His shop recommends a low temp thermo AND a cold air induction system such as the Vararam snake charmer. Icing the intake can't hurt, but the thermoplastic doesn't retain much heat anyway, so gains are minimal.
Heat range of the plugs can affect pinging and pre-ignition, but only up to a point. For example, on a previous car I ran aftermarket heads that had been milled .030" for slightly higher compression, a common practice. For that engine I switched from NGK TR55 plugs to the one step colder TR6 plugs. Nitrous and FI engines will do the same. Common denominator is that combustion pressures and temps are higher, so you need a colder plug.
However, running a colder plug on an engine with no other changes will not drop operating temps, or give you more power. What it will do is raise your risk of fouling the plugs, or reducing your combustion efficiency, thus losing power.
Last edited by HITMAN99; Oct 9, 2006 at 08:31 AM.
Guest
Posts: n/a
[QUOTE=Hoonose]The car will run at essentially the same temp once it's fully warmed up. In order to keep the equilibrium temp down you would need a larger or more efficient cooling system/radiator along with your lower thermostat.
REPLY: THe 160 f. thermostat in my 2006 LS2 made a big difference for daily driving ; in outside temps between 40 f to 100 f , the water temp runs between 172-180 f. when going a constant 30 mph or higher holding at 2000 rpm., and the electric fan hardly ever comes on except for stop and go driving around town and only if its hot outside. The Cooling System of the 2006 is extremely efficient and in order to see water temps the same as with a factory thermostat (using a 160 f thermostat) , youd have to be continually racing the motor .
REPLY: THe 160 f. thermostat in my 2006 LS2 made a big difference for daily driving ; in outside temps between 40 f to 100 f , the water temp runs between 172-180 f. when going a constant 30 mph or higher holding at 2000 rpm., and the electric fan hardly ever comes on except for stop and go driving around town and only if its hot outside. The Cooling System of the 2006 is extremely efficient and in order to see water temps the same as with a factory thermostat (using a 160 f thermostat) , youd have to be continually racing the motor .
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3,565
Likes: 5
From: stafford country, va. Avatar: Me on turn 3 @ Bristol (The World's Fastest Half-Mile)
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Zig is partially correct about the temps. Optimal power is achieved when the coolant temps AND the ambient air temps coming into the intake are low. See some of Chuck's (Corvettes of Westchester) posts on this. His shop recommends a low temp thermo AND a cold air induction system such as the Vararam snake charmer.
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Icing the intake can't hurt, but the thermoplastic doesn't retain much heat anyway, so gains are minimal.
nor does alum., airflow across the block and heads does alot to cool the engine.
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
Heat range of the plugs can affect pinging and pre-ignition, but only up to a point.
would a colder plug be enough to prevent the 'timing retard' that folks are experiencing and thereby using a 160 therm.?
Originally Posted by HITMAN99
For example, on a previous car I ran aftermarket heads that had been milled .030" for slightly higher compression, a common practice. For that engine I switched from NGK TR55 plugs to the one step colder TR6 plugs. Nitrous and FI engines will do the same. Common denominator is that combustion pressures and temps are higher, so you need a colder plug.
However, running a colder plug on an engine with no other changes will not drop operating temps, or give you more power. What it will do is raise your risk of fouling the plugs, or reducing your combustion efficiency, thus losing power.
However, running a colder plug on an engine with no other changes will not drop operating temps, or give you more power. What it will do is raise your risk of fouling the plugs, or reducing your combustion efficiency, thus losing power.
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: Annandale VA
On a stock engine, changing plugs to a lower heat range will accomplish nothing. It is conceivable that if you were running a very aggressive tune, with a lot of spark advance, a colder plug might prevent some pinging and knock retard. However, I have never heard of anyone trying this.
Last edited by HITMAN99; Oct 9, 2006 at 09:39 AM.