oh, maybe i misread it. i got the impression without optimizing you do not get your full dollars worth.

 

Absolutely not what I was talking about. I am disagreeing with the idea that it is a waste to not do the optimizing. In fact I am far in the other direction: MOST of the gains are there before you optimize. A cam that adds 40 will get 45-50 with heads but as I have tested in the past, heads alone gain 30rwhp. So adding a set and getting 35rwhp got you 30 from the heads and 5 more for the cam. The original 40 from the cam wasnt a waste.

It isnt nec. to port an intake to justify a 100rwhp gain from a H/C job. It only leaves single digit HP on the table. I would call the intake porting a waste by comparrison in that case (but I ported everything I could on my car)

 

I'm betting that Zig won't be able to resist getting in the last word.....

 

i think i understand now. you don't like the word waste.

ok, ageed, not to optimize is not a waste but by not optimizing one would not obtain the full potential increase of the mod.

 

We took it to PM's so you wont know who won.

 

I'll stick with 80-85 percent with no supporting mods.

 

but i really enjoy 100%.

i could use a new cam, would you mind sending me the remaining 15-20% of your paycheck.

 

I'm retired and dont have to worry about that stuff...

but seriously, if I only paid 60% of the money to get 80-85% of the gains, it isnt as bad then huh?

Also even if you get the last post, I typed more words in this thread.

 

I rest my case.

 

You a lawyer?

Dont you people have to get back to work or something? I'm trying to leave for the gym.

 

I'm an engineer, not a lawyer ---- but I do like to get on Zig's case....

 

darn.. i still got a few years to go, but i'm really really looking forward to it.

true...

hey wait... do i need to 'break' out the google links to get my word count up ?.... hehehhe....

 

yes, and i yours... friendly jabs to keep everyone honest.

 

Yeah well Im nine months older than you. You will get there.

 

only nine months... share your secret.. i won't tell anyone.

each time i see my father in-law, he asks me how i like retirement life. i haven't worked a real job in the last two years. basically, got burned out at my last job and took some time off.

 

Sorry to hear you got hurt.

I got hurt during the recovery at the WTC after 9/11, went back to work hurt (police) and got shot in the chest. Retire on the original injury, draw a pension, worker's comp, Soc Sec, and the 9/11 fund.

Retiring at age 35 comes with nightmares and I hope you have a safe and long life free of what I saw....and no Im not grumpy. I'm alive.

 

bummer...but like you said, you're alive.

ok, i'll let you have the last word. hehehe... it's been fun.

so, why change the cam ???

 

You're funny ...like a clown

 

oh no.... i amuse you... i make you laugh.... (goodfellas)

or

funny like a clown... i don't like clowns, they scare me (seinfeld)

 

Well well well, I go away for 12 hours and look what happens. First I want to say that I am not at all offended…Spin has a direct approach to argument and I like that. He has experience and I appreciate that too. This whole top –end process has been quite a learning experience and I am barely scratching the surface, so additional input from folks with experience is always appreciated.

Not at all. First, you have no idea how much of a cheap bastard I am. I am so cheap I once made my own airbox out of sheet metal, not welded either. In fact, I begin by assuming I am getting ripped off by vendors and proceed from there. And the Corvette tax on most mods is ridiculous in my view. You will see on other posts I am constantly getting flamed for declaring BS on mods, my first pet peave being $1895 headers ($1200 cat back exhaust being so stupid that it is beyond consideration). So if there is a cheap way, I’m doing it. Take headers: I’ll never do them. What I will do is score LS7 manifolds and mid-pipes, because I know from 5 vendors verbally that they have gotten between 5-20 RWHP when swapping a certain brand of popular headers onto the LS7. Lack of same vendor's willingness to respond to a certain thread concerning a 25RWHP guarantee on a stock Z further cements my conviction that the stockers flow plenty well enough for 460RWHP.


Easy there buckaroo The word “waste” never appeared in my post in reference to the cam. The word I used was “optimized”, and no one can argue with it. All I said, is that it will work separately, but you will get the best results by combining components. Nothing anyone on here didn't already know, but it is is important, because it helps one understand what expense outlays are involved in achieving X HP. That IS what this is all about, is it not? Why else would we be agonizing over whether we can get away with cam only or intake +headers only for our power goal. People DO have budgets and this is what this discussion is all about.

Also, Spin, I disagree with the following

You cannot do a high-lift cam without also changing: springs, pushrods, probably lifters (head must come off). There is just no way around it. And while you’re at it, you have to consider the effects of high lift on valve alignment. Which means that to do this right, on top of the $1,350 cam install, you need to spend $250 on springs, $150 on Ti retainers, $150 on a set of good stiff pushrods, $300 on labor to put it all in. You’re at $850, and still on your stock flowing heads. To add lifters (the hydraulic stockers may collapse at higher RPM) the heads have to come off anyway. So then you have to ask: why not just get a set of Patriot Stage IIs ($1,100 assembled) and get some additional flow and do the lifters while I’m in there. Then add shaft roller rockers for $750 more. Sure, you can risk it and not do all this stuff, but you’ll pay later. Just ask Sick Rick and others about their valve issues when running high lift on the stock rockers. My point is that to do the high lift cam right the first time, you need to spend A LOT MORE than just the cam $$. A high lift cam install, done correctly to ensure durability, is gonna run you $4,600 installed and tuned, and that is with the cheapo Patriots. That's a lot of damn money in my book for a 20% gain.

My point is you have to go into these things with an understanding of all the costs to do it right and not bulls*t yourself with what you think you can get away with.

Moving on to the discussion of power levels, we now have a $4600 H&C budget package that is worth a very peaky 425RWHP. To get this thing rolling on the street, a set of 4.10s is just the ticket. And Spin, I know you can’t disgree with me on that one. So we are now at $6,300 for a pretty darn nice setup with +80 HP. Problem is, it makes most of the power over 4500. You will go to redline, and go there often. So then you wonder whether you should port the marginal oil pump (and I have personally witnessed its marginality on the banking at Fontana) and do a timing chain while you have the cover off. We are now at close to $7K.

Is it all worth it? Only the user can answer that. Then there are other considerations: will I sell the car in three years? Because the package above is essentially permanent since un-installing it is not practical. Will the car attract buyers with this specialized setup, or will it be virtually un-sellable. Will it pass CA smog when I need to sell it?

Which is why I personally am probably going with the Maggie if I do anything at all, because I can at least remove it easily and re-use it or sell it. But, given I am cheap, I will probably pass on all of this. The mod I am most likely to do is the gears. I am convinced that 4.10s ARE a great bang for the buck. At least I know I considered all my options carefully.