I am about to have my 2006 A6 tuned with a new Honker installed. (Already have Melrose headers.) What codes should I look to have the tuner turn off? Thnaks.

 

none.. it should run without throwing codes until you get around to swapping out the cam or heads.

basic breathing mods. should not require a disable of the codes, although there does seem to be a good number of folks that get codes after headers and high-flow cats.

me, no codes, no tune, with headers, high flow cats, vram air intake and spacer.

 

Its a question of do you want a "toon" or do you want a "tune"? In general, knee jerk turning off codes is "tooning" not tuning.

A good dyno tune with those modifications and it shouldn't throw any codes.

 

It won't throw any codes because they turned off the codes (rear 02 sensors in this case), same thing they do in what you call a "toon". Do you think a Dyno tune doesn't include turning off rear 02 sensors and still doing the basics? Keep in mind a Dyno only tells you HP/TQ and A/F. Any tuner is going to change 15-20 parameters before your car even hits the dyno. And if you truly want your car running perfect you need a road tune in addition to dyno tune.

 

No codes really unless you want your rear 02 sensors turned off. I've had headers for 2 years and haven't gotten the code so I never worried about it. Torque Management and shift points should be your #1 priority for that car. If he's doing a complete custom tune then he will be doing A/F ratio and get the timing optimized.

 

Not all dyno tunes include turning off the rear 02s.

The cars in post #5 and post #17 have active rear 02 sensors. There are others (and if you give me a minute I will look them up) which have also been tuned on the dyno and have active rear 02s and are running long tube headers. Without codes.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1600450

 

I also have active rear 02 sensors and have headers for almost 2 years, and have been on a dyno 4 times. The dyno part of this is actually completely irrelevant because wether or not your sensors throw a code has nothing to do with wether or not the car is/or has been on a dyno.

If the cats were removed then the codes need to be deleted, its a simple as that wether Jon Lingenfelter Jr. is tuning your car or local tuner Timmy is tuning your car.

 

Of course it doesn't. Thats not my point.

While with the above statement, I'm not sure I know what your point is.

Mine was that the original poster should not necessarily have to have codes "turned off" with his modifications if he is running cats, (and he does not say that he isn't), if his tuner is a good one.

My statement was in response to "...basic breathing mods. should not require a disable of the codes, although there does seem to be a good number of folks that get codes after headers and high-flow cats...."


Perhaps you were unaware that he is running cats. Indeed if you look at his profile, he in fact says that he is running high flow cats.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/member.php?u=174451

City:
Wheaton
State:
Illinois
Country:
USA
Occupation:
University Professor
Year & Model:
2006 A6 Coupe
Color:
LeMans Blue/Ebony
Mods:
Melrose Headers, X Pipe, Hi Flow Cats, Z06 Sway Bars, Lloyds Mats

In response to your question highlighted in red:

My response would be "indeed it might".

Not necessarily. It may very well have been tuned with long tube headers on it, and without having the rear 02s turned off ie the cars I pointed to in the thread. But now some of these "tooners" out here will immediately turn your rear 02s off if they get ahold of your car. Codes or no codes.

See above. Its my belief that if the tuner is a really good one, he "should" in many instances, be able to get around turning your rear 02s off if you are running headers and high flow cats.

I have had a car dyno tuned before.

What???? Again, not necessarily. I hope you aren't telling us that someone changed 15-20 parameters in your car before ever even putting it on the dyno. That sounds like a canned "toon" to me, which was then modified on the dyno.

On that I agree. I have played with tuning my own car C5 using HP Tuners and an installed wide band 02 meter. LC-1.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1121903

 

Any Tuner who doesn't do the basics is not a good tuner.

Yes I changed well over 15 parameters before putting my car on the dyno, a dyno's not gonna tell me what or how to tune. Only results.

I've had my car on a dyno previously to my tune so what good is putting it on again gonna do, other that confirm results?

 

The "basics" don't necessarily include immediately turning off one's rear 02s if they are running headers and high flow cats.

Doing so can result in the car not passing emissions inspection in some areas.

Are you saying that the "basics" weren't done to the cars listed in post #5 and post #17 of

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1600450

I most certainly hope that the "basics" were observed in tuning those cars, as those people spent a lot of money on modifications.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...post1555879030

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...s+tuning+codes post #13.

 

[QUOTE=DSOM Z51;1559064722]
I understand your concern with the sensors. What I am saying is their are about 15-20 "BASICS" to tuning.

Any big-time tuner is going to be changing fans, TQ management (manuals also have TM), shift points for auto's, timing, and fuel adjustments.

These few things add up to 15-20 parameters, you can't tune w/out changing these basics.

 

[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by ALLBlackC6
It won't throw any codes because they turned off the codes (rear 02 sensors in this case), same thing they do in what you call a "toon". Do you think a Dyno tune doesn't include turning off rear 02 sensors and still doing the basics?

My response would be "indeed it might".
[QUOTE]




I didn't say anything about wether or not the basics were done in his tune.

Although it appears "indeed it might" not have been done.

 

[QUOTE=ALLBlackC6;1559064856]Again, if you have a stock thermostat, some will find no need to change your fan settings.

Please tell me how does one know, with any degree of accuracy, at what RPM ranges to start making timing and fuel adjustments without putting the car on a dyno or on the road?

Without wide band measurements, taken on a dyno or the road, and real time scanning, how does one know how much fuel or timing to add or delete, at say the ranges of 3500 RPM to 4500 RPM for any given car? How about 2500-3500?

Also depending upon the modifications, cam, stall speed, converter lock up, a good tuner, tuning an automatic, will determine his shift points and other parameters, based in part upon the dyno measurements, where the car is making it's power, and road testing as well.

What would you think if someone changed 15 different things in this guy's current stock tune, without even putting the car on a dyno?

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...9&postcount=15

"....I sent information to Charlie for the $100 mail order tune that was listed here on CF. I included the dyno pulls with A/F's and he said I did not need a tune. People who are picking up 15 hp with a stock car must have had terribly rich A/F's to begin with. There is a tuner here in the Phx area that told me the other day there isn't much power, if any, to pick up with timing on the LS2.
...."

Sure the Predator and other handheld "tooning" devices, and canned "toons" will make numerous "generic" changes in the stock tune and these changes may very well number "15" when all is said and done. And there are "tooners" who will just ***** nilly start changing things in your car before the car ever sees a dyno. But in my mind, thats " custom tooning" as opposed to "custom tuning."

The gentleman above, I am sure that he would have very little difficulty finding someone more than willing to "toon" his car. Mail order or otherwise. And I would be willing to bet that they would change those 15 things you talked about. But would his car run any better and more reliability than it does now?

Turning off the rear 02 sensors in a car running long tube headers and high flow cats apparently is not always necessary. I have shown you a few examples of people whose cars have been tuned, with headers and high flow cats, and the tuning did not include deleting the rear 02s.

I'd say that if he has to turn a lot of codes off, then I'd seriously look into having someone else tune it. One of the first things I'll do before I have mine tuned is ask the tuner about his feelings about disabling codes, particulary, but not limited to, the rear 02s.

I don't doubt that. But its the manner and methods your man uses to go about "changing these basics" which determines whether you are getting a "toon" or a "tune".

If he is just going and turning $#!+ off, whenever it pops up, and changing stuff just for the sake of changing it ....that ain't a tune.

 

I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but I think this approach is at least part of why you are having the problems/oddities/ concerns/ and for lack of a better term "weirdness" which you describe in your thread here:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1627628

For those who are interested, when your car is put on the dyno, the operator makes baseline pulls and looks at your A/F ratios, spark, etc. Many measure the A/F ratios in front of the cats through a pre existing bung. Some at the tail pipe. I had an 02 bung put into one of my headers for wide band measurements.

He will make changes as he sees fit and then make additional pulls and make additional changes if he sees fit.

Attempting to nail down part throttle and WOT parameters, from there some even put the car on the road under a variety of driving conditions or even on the track, log the results on the laptop with the wide band and tuning cable plugged in, and make additional changes if necessary.

Some attempt the same thing using the Mustang Dyno which puts the car under load albeit probably not quite as useful as tuning on the road if one has an CAI.

This statement I don't understand at all. It might not tell you that, but a competent tuner can use the dyno as a tool to help him write an excellent tune. As the car is on the dyno A/F readings are being registered through the RPM range. (If the wide band sensor is in place) If the car is lean or rich during a portion of the run, the tuner can add or subtract fuel in those particular cells as necessary. He can add or pull timing in various cells if he wishes as well.

He can tell exactly what the car is doing A/F and spark wise, how much horsepower and torque it's making, at just about any given point during the run and can make changes at whatever point he chooses. This way he knows what to fix and where to fix it.

His laptop is plugged into the OBD port and in his tuning software he can make changes right there and do another pull to see what effect that had.

When he makes his changes, he not only will look at the "results" hp and torque wise, but will also look at the A/F ratios, etc. throughout the run.

On the road or at the track, logging software can be used to do the same thing. Runs can be made and "replayed" in real time with parameters such as A/F and spark right, and a whole host of others, right at your fingertips. You can see if the car is running lean, rich or pulling timing and at what point it is doing so.

Armed with that information, tweaks can be made to make the car run optimally on the road or track. These things tell one where efforts need to be concentrated in the tune.

The tune also should be "safe" ie the tune making the most power is not necessarily the best tune if it would unduly risk damage to the engine, or in the case of the automatic transmissioned cars, the transmission.

Making changes, and not knowing what the hell you are changing and/or why, or even where in the RPM band you are making said changes, or even IF you need to make a change at that or those points, and then sticking the car on the dyno and looking at hp and torque results is not tuning.

Thus this concept of making "15 changes before even logging any data whatsoever, on either the road or the dyno", while it is done in "canned" tunes, is not tuning at it's finest.

A good tuner is worth his weight in gold and a good tune may take a few hours.

BTW, the guy who made the posts in #17, 19 and 21 of your thread seemed to be very knowledgable and mentioned 6 years of experience. Some of what he said in those posts, I have myself heard when I was playing around with tunes on my C5. There was also good advice in #8, 12, 14, 22

His advice is complex, and for most it has to be read and re read and then researched, to get an idea of what he is talking about, but thats just it. Tuning is best left to a competent professional and that can be hard to find indeed.

 

My initial disagreement with your statement was based upon dyno's. I was trying to say that road tuning and scanning data were just as important as putting the car on a dyno.

Somewhere I think we got side-tracked.

I have actually been working with Charlie and his tunes, so I know exactly what he changes, I don't feel comfortable posting on here when/why he made changes so I won't.

I just kinda took offense when you were talking about "canned" toons. A canned tune is a predator or diablo or a "one size fits all" tune.

The reason I took offense is because I have been trying to learn some "basic" tuning lately. I've done some little things on my buddy's cars. When I say little things I'm speaking of skip-shift / fans / TM / stuff like that. While that stuff is basic, its still things alot of people want done. So when you were saying "toon" and canned "toon" it just struck me the wrong way, because like I said, some people may go to Jon Lingenfelter Jr. to have their car tuned, but they still are (most likely) getting some basic stuff done to suit their preferances. And if I'm sitting in a car with HPT its not a canned tune.

As far as my issue in the other thread:

When I'm VE (volumetric efficiency) tuning the fuel trims get reset. So when I flash back to stock tune , with my mods the car was running lean because the FT's were trying to re-learn. Thus power was incredible but too lean for safety.

I was under the impression that if you have cats deleted you have to disable the codes, but I'm not into that yet because I have cats so I really don't care (yet).

I hope I cleared this up for you a little bit.

 

Cleared up a great deal. Thanks.

If you are not running cats, then indeed you will need to disable the codes. If you are running cats, then there may or may not be a need to disable the code.

If its throwing a code with the high flow cats, some here have been able to either tune the car themselves, or have the car tuned (Spinmonster and others) and in the process eliminate the problem with the car throwing that particular code, and without disabling the rear 02s.

Others are running headers and high flow cats with stock tunes and custom tunes and have had no need to disable the rear 02s.

I said what I did because when I was shopping for headers, at least one vendor/tuner here told me to not even worry about installing my rear 02 sensors. Just disconnect them from the harness and have them edited out, no questions asked.

To me, thats a quick fix or a short cut, the easy way, or the lazy man's way out, if you will.

After reading Spinmonster's post and the reports of others, I am just about convinced that the rear 02s need not be edited out unless you are simply not running cats.