4.10 gear - rev limiter question
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
not for everyone.....
4.10's are a great mod, but only in the proper setting, they are definitely not the "one fit all" gear. Just ask the dozens of people that we have switched from 4.10's to a lower ratio when there needs or power levels changed.
Raising the rev limiter on a stock car is definitely not the answer to hitting the rev limiter because you are then way out of the power curve of the stock cam shaft. Let alone above where the stock valve springs where meant to be pushed to.
We have been building C5/C6 rears for our customers and other shops since as soon as the gears were available and many have been extremely happy with the 4.10's, especially in there proper setting or plain street use, but to say "they are the gear of choice for all" is simply not correct. If the customer does not know what they need, then it is the tuners responsibility to carefully listen to the customer and put them in the proper ratio for their needs and 4.10's is not always the answer. IMHO
Raising the rev limiter on a stock car is definitely not the answer to hitting the rev limiter because you are then way out of the power curve of the stock cam shaft. Let alone above where the stock valve springs where meant to be pushed to.
We have been building C5/C6 rears for our customers and other shops since as soon as the gears were available and many have been extremely happy with the 4.10's, especially in there proper setting or plain street use, but to say "they are the gear of choice for all" is simply not correct. If the customer does not know what they need, then it is the tuners responsibility to carefully listen to the customer and put them in the proper ratio for their needs and 4.10's is not always the answer. IMHO
I agree....For MOST customers with relatively stock drivetrains.....You can't beat em....
When you specialize in forced induction....You are correct..They are not for everyone....But, the vast majority of Vettes out there have stock motors....The MAJORITY of YOUR customers are F/I or big head/cam cars and you are correct in that YOUR CUSTOMERS might not benefit in every case....The Majority of guys I sell them to....have mostly stock drivetrains....
Apples and oranges....I try to sell what suits the customer best....That's all... 4.10's are not for EVERYONE..... But they are perfect for MOST vettes.
Chuck CoW
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,647
Likes: 1
From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,647
Likes: 1
From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
A lot of good input but.
It is true there are a ton of grossly overpowered street cars running street tires and 600rwhp that may say that 4.10's are wrong for them when in reality it was the 600rwhp that was wrong for street tires. Nonetheless, a typical guy with a H/C car and gearring would not be making a mistake with 3.90's for the track or 4.10's for the street.
I dont know if I am being called the physics major in the above post but suffice it to say I have 6.13's in a car with 762hp and 825tq and it sticks. Both my corvettes had 4.10's and I would have gotten 4.90's if they were available. Barring ONE forum member with 620rwhp that put the stock gears back in, Ihave never read that a gear swapper regretted 4.10's. Please be sure to list some more of them if you know of a few that actually did it and regretted it.
I think the best route would be to go drive a car with 4.10's and the response would be (as I have heard countless times before after recommending 4.10's) I am sure gald I didnt go lower with 3.90's. Please find me the 4.10 guys that regretted it.
I know nothing of road race cars so if that application says 4.10's are bad then I accept that.
600rwhp from forced induction with 3.42's is a 12 second car on street tires. In that application 4.10's wouldnt help but make you stay in the 12's. The tuner would have been at fault to not point out that 600rwhp for street tires was the wrong application in the first place but apparently it wasnt important at the point of sale so why start at gear time.
I like a more even distribution of power. H/C adds plenty upstairs but nothing for the daily driver not revving the hell out of his car. Most FI cars Ihave been in are simple exaggerations of this. They have a stock feeling car below 3k and tire spin over that rpm....wow. It would have been better to put in gears and stop adding power when you couldnt get traction anymore. I know FI packages make money and dyno sheets add pride.
Get 4.10's, Z06 fenders and 345 BFG drag radials. Then add power until you can't get it to the ground anymore. That is the fastest street car you can build. Silly power that negates 4.10's......thats the guy in your rear view mirror smoking tires.
It is true there are a ton of grossly overpowered street cars running street tires and 600rwhp that may say that 4.10's are wrong for them when in reality it was the 600rwhp that was wrong for street tires. Nonetheless, a typical guy with a H/C car and gearring would not be making a mistake with 3.90's for the track or 4.10's for the street.
I dont know if I am being called the physics major in the above post but suffice it to say I have 6.13's in a car with 762hp and 825tq and it sticks. Both my corvettes had 4.10's and I would have gotten 4.90's if they were available. Barring ONE forum member with 620rwhp that put the stock gears back in, Ihave never read that a gear swapper regretted 4.10's. Please be sure to list some more of them if you know of a few that actually did it and regretted it.
I think the best route would be to go drive a car with 4.10's and the response would be (as I have heard countless times before after recommending 4.10's) I am sure gald I didnt go lower with 3.90's. Please find me the 4.10 guys that regretted it.
I know nothing of road race cars so if that application says 4.10's are bad then I accept that.
600rwhp from forced induction with 3.42's is a 12 second car on street tires. In that application 4.10's wouldnt help but make you stay in the 12's. The tuner would have been at fault to not point out that 600rwhp for street tires was the wrong application in the first place but apparently it wasnt important at the point of sale so why start at gear time.
I like a more even distribution of power. H/C adds plenty upstairs but nothing for the daily driver not revving the hell out of his car. Most FI cars Ihave been in are simple exaggerations of this. They have a stock feeling car below 3k and tire spin over that rpm....wow. It would have been better to put in gears and stop adding power when you couldnt get traction anymore. I know FI packages make money and dyno sheets add pride.
Get 4.10's, Z06 fenders and 345 BFG drag radials. Then add power until you can't get it to the ground anymore. That is the fastest street car you can build. Silly power that negates 4.10's......thats the guy in your rear view mirror smoking tires.
100%.. I had a 93 mustang cobra procharged with 540rwhp, had 3.73's and switched to 4.10's with 28 inch Mickey t's it was just brutal on the street,,, would never go back to 3.73's...sold it.. was the original owner.
Team Owner
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 24,652
Likes: 298
From: NJ
St. Jude Donor '05-'08
Driving style wastes gas not gears. You can maintain exactly the same mileage with 4.10's. Beating on a car that is modded does waste more gas because it is faster. You only take it to higher rpms when you beat on it. Those with observed fuel mileage with 4.10's that drive normal see no difference in mileage. In the ancient days of my trans ams with only 4 gears there was a horrible economy price to be paid. At 80 in 6th gear you are doing 2300 rpms and seeing 32mpg on the DIC. Beating the shiit out of the car with 3.42'sand doing 150mph is 9mpg.
My Trailblazer SS with 4.10 gears but only a 4 speed not a 6 speed gets 15.7 mpg on the highway and we dont talk about what it gets around town
BTW both 4.10s and 3.73s average 7 mpg at Watkins Glen
Premium Supporting Vendor
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,599
Likes: 1,226
From: Providing the most proven supercharger kits for your C5/6/7 609-752-0321
I agree....For MOST customers with relatively stock drivetrains.....You can't beat em....
When you specialize in forced induction....You are correct..They are not for everyone....But, the vast majority of Vettes out there have stock motors....The MAJORITY of YOUR customers are F/I or big head/cam cars and you are correct in that YOUR CUSTOMERS might not benefit in every case....The Majority of guys I sell them to....have mostly stock drivetrains....
Apples and oranges....I try to sell what suits the customer best....That's all... 4.10's are not for EVERYONE..... But they are perfect for MOST vettes.
Chuck CoW
When you specialize in forced induction....You are correct..They are not for everyone....But, the vast majority of Vettes out there have stock motors....The MAJORITY of YOUR customers are F/I or big head/cam cars and you are correct in that YOUR CUSTOMERS might not benefit in every case....The Majority of guys I sell them to....have mostly stock drivetrains....
Apples and oranges....I try to sell what suits the customer best....That's all... 4.10's are not for EVERYONE..... But they are perfect for MOST vettes.
Chuck CoW
My only point was that many people know they are going to upgrade their power level later and 4.10's would not be for them.(or other reasons for it) We try and direct the customer to their final goal in a straight line so money is not wasted along the way, I'm sure you do too.
Coincidentally I have a car in the bay now that has 600 miles on a 4.10 rear and we are going to switch it to 3.73's while we add a Paxton to his stock engine. Thats just another example of right gear for the right package to make the car as fast as possible, which takes getting that power to the ground. Spinning tires was cool in high school, but going faster is more my thing now.
BTW, my average customer does not get the forged F/I package and crazy high hp set ups, our average customer is the average person thats gets headers/gears/air boxes/tuning/etc, you just dont read about them as much since it is considered "average".
We just offer the large hp packages too, and do a great deal of them, which makes for better reading and a stronger sense of knowing what we are doing for the average guy. Hence if you can build record holding cars, the common job has obviously been mastered, so the advise usually holds more weight to the end user IMHO.
Safety Car
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,647
Likes: 1
From: Objects in your mirror are losing , Long Island, NY
St. Jude Donor '08
Sounds like we are on the same page Chuck,
My only point was that many people know they are going to upgrade their power level later and 4.10's would not be for them.(or other reasons for it) We try and direct the customer to their final goal in a straight line so money is not wasted along the way, I'm sure you do too.
Coincidentally I have a car in the bay now that has 600 miles on a 4.10 rear and we are going to switch it to 3.73's while we add a Paxton to his stock engine. Thats just another example of right gear for the right package to make the car as fast as possible, which takes getting that power to the ground. Spinning tires was cool in high school, but going faster is more my thing now.
BTW, my average customer does not get the forged F/I package and crazy high hp set ups, our average customer is the average person thats gets headers/gears/air boxes/tuning/etc, you just dont read about them as much since it is considered "average". We just offer the large hp packages too, and do a great deal of them, which makes for better reading and a stronger sense of knowing what we are doing for the average guy. Hence if you can build record holding cars, the common job has obviously been mastered, so the advise usually holds more weight to the end user IMHO.
My only point was that many people know they are going to upgrade their power level later and 4.10's would not be for them.(or other reasons for it) We try and direct the customer to their final goal in a straight line so money is not wasted along the way, I'm sure you do too.
Coincidentally I have a car in the bay now that has 600 miles on a 4.10 rear and we are going to switch it to 3.73's while we add a Paxton to his stock engine. Thats just another example of right gear for the right package to make the car as fast as possible, which takes getting that power to the ground. Spinning tires was cool in high school, but going faster is more my thing now.
BTW, my average customer does not get the forged F/I package and crazy high hp set ups, our average customer is the average person thats gets headers/gears/air boxes/tuning/etc, you just dont read about them as much since it is considered "average".
We just offer the large hp packages too, and do a great deal of them, which makes for better reading and a stronger sense of knowing what we are doing for the average guy. Hence if you can build record holding cars, the common job has obviously been mastered, so the advise usually holds more weight to the end user IMHO.
your candor is appreciated..
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
Sorry for the late response.....
Sorry Chuck, but I can't believe that you said that!
"It is getting a little booring listening to all of they physics majors (who have never driven a vette with 4.10's) tell the rest of the forum why others should not get them"
I had alot of respect for you and your opinion and experience as do many others. I have come to this conclusion based on most of your theads that I have read and that you have a good reputation in the Forum, but to slam anyone else's opinion other than yours...isn't that a little narrow minded?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you I' am assuming by your statement that you do have a major in physics.
There are different ratios for different applications depending on what your goals are for your specific vehicle and maybe that why manufacturers offer so many gear choices.
If 4.10's were the gear to have for all applications, may I suggest to you that maybe 4.10 would be the only option out there?
You of all people as a leader in the Forum and a supporting tuner (and for whom many seek your advise in this Forum) should separate yourself from this petite name calling.
I must say that I am quite disappointed about your remarks in regards to this matter and I'll take away from this some insight for future reference.
BTW "boring" is spelt with one "O".
"It is getting a little booring listening to all of they physics majors (who have never driven a vette with 4.10's) tell the rest of the forum why others should not get them"
I had alot of respect for you and your opinion and experience as do many others. I have come to this conclusion based on most of your theads that I have read and that you have a good reputation in the Forum, but to slam anyone else's opinion other than yours...isn't that a little narrow minded?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you I' am assuming by your statement that you do have a major in physics.
There are different ratios for different applications depending on what your goals are for your specific vehicle and maybe that why manufacturers offer so many gear choices.
If 4.10's were the gear to have for all applications, may I suggest to you that maybe 4.10 would be the only option out there?
You of all people as a leader in the Forum and a supporting tuner (and for whom many seek your advise in this Forum) should separate yourself from this petite name calling.
I must say that I am quite disappointed about your remarks in regards to this matter and I'll take away from this some insight for future reference.
BTW "boring" is spelt with one "O".
Sorry guys for the late response here....I tried to reply to this post yesterday, but...Looks like communist countries don't make the reliability of the internet a priority....
Anyway, before I lost my internet yesterday I saved my response....here goes....
Hey man...Please don't take my comment the wrong way....It's not directed at anyone specific....
Fact is that I sell TONS of 4.10's and EVERYONE loves them...The problem is that (and my point is...) every time I turn around there's some guy who DOSEN'T own 4.10's that's trying to steer people away from them.
Please realize that I make the same money wether you pick 3.73's or 4.10's or whatever...I'm not trying to push them on guys cause it makes more money or anything like that....
I genuinely enjoy the customer who comes back from a test ride and tells me "HOLY COW! I love these 4.10's!
It's real hard for me to sit and watch people and their misguided opinions and totally off base assumptions based on nothing more than what they remember from their buddies 4.10 camaro back in the 70's...tell my potential customers that something I'm promising is GOLD might be something less....That bugs me.
Again, maybe my wording was misunderstood....sorry for that....but...My interest here lies in what's best for the customer..That's it.
Chuck CoW
Fact is that I sell TONS of 4.10's and EVERYONE loves them...The problem is that (and my point is...) every time I turn around there's some guy who DOSEN'T own 4.10's that's trying to steer people away from them.
Please realize that I make the same money wether you pick 3.73's or 4.10's or whatever...I'm not trying to push them on guys cause it makes more money or anything like that....
I genuinely enjoy the customer who comes back from a test ride and tells me "HOLY COW! I love these 4.10's!
It's real hard for me to sit and watch people and their misguided opinions and totally off base assumptions based on nothing more than what they remember from their buddies 4.10 camaro back in the 70's...tell my potential customers that something I'm promising is GOLD might be something less....That bugs me.
Again, maybe my wording was misunderstood....sorry for that....but...My interest here lies in what's best for the customer..That's it.
Chuck CoW
Pro
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
From: Toronto Ontario
Hey Chuck,
Don't know what to say, I too am sorry to have put you on the spot, but it sure appears that this topic got blown out of proportion just a tad.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and I believe that your a gentleman...I just wanted to make a point since I am not just flapping my gums and I did not want to offend you in any way when I made a simple statement that "I would go with 3.73!"
As I have since stated a few times since that original comment that my opinion in regards to this topic is that there is a specific gear selection out there that suits each and every application and combination of parts and if you have the means sometimes there is more than one depending on conditions and so on.(e.g.-particulars track, etc...)
It just appeared that you were personally attacking anyone whom had an opinion other than you own and that anyone elses opinion that was not in line with your statement was absurd and ludicrous!
I dunno just kinda rubbed me wrong.
I believe that your apology was true and from the heart...thank you!
Rizzo
Don't know what to say, I too am sorry to have put you on the spot, but it sure appears that this topic got blown out of proportion just a tad.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and I believe that your a gentleman...I just wanted to make a point since I am not just flapping my gums and I did not want to offend you in any way when I made a simple statement that "I would go with 3.73!"
As I have since stated a few times since that original comment that my opinion in regards to this topic is that there is a specific gear selection out there that suits each and every application and combination of parts and if you have the means sometimes there is more than one depending on conditions and so on.(e.g.-particulars track, etc...)
It just appeared that you were personally attacking anyone whom had an opinion other than you own and that anyone elses opinion that was not in line with your statement was absurd and ludicrous!
I dunno just kinda rubbed me wrong.
I believe that your apology was true and from the heart...thank you!
Rizzo
Last edited by Rizzo da Rat; Mar 25, 2007 at 06:20 PM.
Corvette Stories
The Best of Corvette for Corvette Enthusiasts
Every 2027 Corvette Engine Explained
Joe Kucinski
Designer Imagines A Corvette That Looks More Like a Corvette Than the Corvette
Verdad Gallardo
10 Ugly Corvettes That We Still Kinda Love
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 Most Expensive Corvettes Ever Sold on Bring A Trailer
Brett Foote
10 Things Every Corvette Owner Needs (2026 Edition)
Michael S. Palmer
8 Most "Only Corvette Owners Understand" Quirks and Problems
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Reasons the C6 Z06 is Still A Performance Benchmark After 20 Years
Joe Kucinski
How Much Horsepower Every Corvette Engine "LOST" in 1972
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 DOs and DON'Ts for Protecting Your Convertible Top!
Michael S. Palmer
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
Likes: 255
From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
yup yup.
Hey Chuck,
Don't know what to say, I too am sorry to have put you on the spot, but it sure appears that this topic got blown out of proportion just a tad.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and I believe that your a gentleman...I just wanted to make a point since I am not just flapping my gums and I did not want to offend you in any way when I made a simple statement that "I would go with 3.73!"
As I have since stated a few times since that original comment that my opinion in regards to this topic is that there is a specific gear selection out there that suits each and every application and combination of parts and if you have the means sometimes there is more than one depending on conditions and so on.(e.g.-particulars track, etc...)
It just appeared that you were personally attacking anyone whom had an opinion other than you own and that anyone elses opinion that was not in line with your statement was absurd and ludicrous!
I dunno just kinda rubbed me wrong.
I believe that your apology was true and from the heart...thank you!
Rizzo
Don't know what to say, I too am sorry to have put you on the spot, but it sure appears that this topic got blown out of proportion just a tad.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and I believe that your a gentleman...I just wanted to make a point since I am not just flapping my gums and I did not want to offend you in any way when I made a simple statement that "I would go with 3.73!"
As I have since stated a few times since that original comment that my opinion in regards to this topic is that there is a specific gear selection out there that suits each and every application and combination of parts and if you have the means sometimes there is more than one depending on conditions and so on.(e.g.-particulars track, etc...)
It just appeared that you were personally attacking anyone whom had an opinion other than you own and that anyone elses opinion that was not in line with your statement was absurd and ludicrous!
I dunno just kinda rubbed me wrong.
I believe that your apology was true and from the heart...thank you!
Rizzo
Chuck CoW
