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I've seen a 180 degree thermostat for sale at https://www.vengeancerd.com/ecart/pr...ree-Thermostat, but the OEM is 186, so that really doesn't offer much of a benefit. And the 160 degree thermostat causes error codes in colder temps. What I would really like is a 170 or 175 degree thermostat, but I don't know where to get one. Does such a thing exist?
Last edited by CSixDude; Dec 11, 2010 at 10:25 AM.
Have you ever tried to find what proper coolant temperature is for most automotive engines? There are a lot of people who think they know, but it is difficult to find specifics, even in textbooks. We know we want the intake air to be as cold as possible (for best power) because cold air is denser (there are more oxygen atoms per cubic foot). The coolant temperature, however, is a different matter. The internal combustion engine changes chemical energy stored in gasoline into heat energy that is focused on the piston tops. If the cylinder heads and engine block are too cold, they will absorb much of the combustion heat before it can be used to push the piston down the cylinder. If the engine gets too hot, engine lubricants can break down, as well as overheating of the intake charge can lead to detonation, etc.
It turns out that coolant (usually a 50/50 mixture of coolant and water) has some fantastic properties that are ideal for use in engines. With a properly pressurized cooling system, coolant will not freeze until –30°F, and it won’t boil until +270°F (new oils don’t start to break down until well over 270°F). With these characteristics, engine designers have decided that engines should operate at approximately 210-215°F. Why, you ask? Well, it has to do with operating the engine at a high enough temperature to boil water out of the oil after the engine is cold started. If you have dew on the grass, it is certain that you have water in your oil, as the crankcase is open to atmospheric pressure! You can either remove the water by draining it out the bottom of the oil pan (remember the oil floats on water) or run the engine long enough and hot enough to boil the water out of the lubrication system. Years ago, coolants weren’t as sophisticated and engines were run at 165-180F, but the oil was changed every 1000 miles or so. That’s why many old timers think engines should run at 165-180F. Have you ever noticed that Ford doesn’t put temperature marks on their gauges? They just mark C for cold and H for hot and write “normal” through the center. If you hook up a scan tool to a GM, you will often find that the gauge reads much lower than the coolant temp sensor. That is because they know most drivers don’t understand how hot an engine should run.
So what does this have to do with camshafts? Many enthusiasts erroneously think that the colder their engine runs the better! If they are not running the engine hot enough to boil the water out of the oil, the oil becomes contaminated and the lifter/cam lobe interface is the highest load point in the engine. Engines running too cool can contribute significantly to camshaft and lifter failure. Think about it: What good does it do to use the most expensive synthetic oil and then run the engine so cold that it is contaminated by water vapor??!! Another point, piston manufacturers’ piston-to-wall clearance recommendations assume you will be running the fully warmed engine at 200°+F. Run the engine too cold, and you could see some scuffed pistons because the cylinders had not expanded enough to provide clearance.
If your engine will only run its best at the drag strip with the engine at 165°F, you probably have too cold of a spark plug heat range and you are probably jetted way too rich! If you keep the engine hot (not the intake charge), you will be using more of the heat energy in the gasoline to make power instead of just heating up your block. It does take “tuning know-how” to run an engine at 200-210°F, but you might be surprised how well and how long it runs when you do!! One final point - running a computer managed engine at 165°F compared to the factory 210°F will often cost you as much as 4 MPG. The reason for this is that the computer thinks that the engine is not off the “choke cycle” and it is still putting out a rich mixture! Check the science on this and don’t pay attention to the “old wives tales” of the past. Materials and lubricants are much better and different today than they were in the past!!
Find you a higher quality stat. I had a Mr. Gasket 160 and it opened well below 160 and caused grief with the PCM. Changed it out for a Lingenfelter 160 and no more problems. Engine temps are normally between 175 and 180. That worked for me. Your results may vary...
I've been saying that for years. Many debates here, even some tuners think you need to run your engine cold.
MY TT GTO ran the stock thermostat in Phoenix, AZ year round without issue.
My Z06 has the stock thermostat and runs 189-194F in most situations, only climbing above 200F at extended idle. And it takes 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temp past 150F in mild weather.
There is zero reason to run colder than that. If you're worried about staging at the drag strip, just run the fans sooner to keep the temp below 200F.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many of these cam and valve spring failures, and premature worn valve guides were due to running the engines too cold.
Last edited by AirBusPilot; Dec 11, 2010 at 02:08 PM.
I've been saying that for years. Many debates here, even some tuners think you need to run your engine cold.
MY TT GTO ran the stock thermostat in Phoenix, AZ year round without issue.
My Z06 has the stock thermostat and runs 189-194F in most situations, only climbing above 200F at extended idle. And it takes 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temp past 150F in mild weather.
There is zero reason to run colder than that. If you're worried about staging at the drag strip, just run the fans sooner to keep the temp below 200F.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many of these cam and valve spring failures, and premature worn valve guides were due to running the engines too cold.
It's not a huge issue with an n/a engine, but a cooler running engine helps a bunch with top mounted s'charged engines. With the intercooler sitting in the valley between the cylinder heads and metal parts bonding it to the hot motor.....well, you get the value. Having those parts around the charger/intercooler at a cooler temp is a big plus.
I do agree that a motor running 210 degrees will be more economical than one running 160.
Last edited by old motorhead; Dec 11, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
I got a 160 Thermostat when I did my LG headers tune and intake. The temp of the vehicle fluctuates depending on how u drive it. It doesn't always stay too cool. It fluctuates in the right amount with a 160 degree.
I think you answered your own question with that fine article you reposted.
Unless you have a situation like:
Originally Posted by old motorhead
It's not a huge issue with an n/a engine, but a cooler running engine helps a bunch with top mounted s'charged engines. With the intercooler sitting in the valley between the cylinder heads and metal parts bonding it to the hot motor.....well, you get the value. Having those parts around the charger/intercooler at a cooler temp is a big plus.
AirBusPilot posts some pretty accurate information:
Originally Posted by AirBusPilot
MY TT GTO ran the stock thermostat in Phoenix, AZ year round without issue.
My Z06 has the stock thermostat and runs 189-194F in most situations, only climbing above 200F at extended idle. And it takes 20 minutes of driving to get the oil temp past 150F in mild weather.
There is zero reason to run colder than that. If you're worried about staging at the drag strip, just run the fans sooner to keep the temp below 200F.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if many of these cam and valve spring failures, and premature worn valve guides were due to running the engines too cold.
And I do agree with old motorhead that a motor running 210 degrees will be more economical than one running 160. So save your money, don't change your thermostat.
I've seen a 180 degree thermostat for sale at https://www.vengeancerd.com/ecart/pr...ree-Thermostat, but the OEM is 186, so that really doesn't offer much of a benefit. And the 160 degree thermostat causes error codes in colder temps. What I would really like is a 170 or 175 degree thermostat, but I don't know where to get one. Does such a thing exist?
What error codes are you getting? I'm running a 160' stat in the NE/Tri-state area. I've driven the car regularly in +/- 32'F temps without throwing any codes. You shouldn't be running it up to red line until oil temps have reached proper operating range.
The problem is that the temp gauge stops operating when one of the error codes is thrown and the only way to reset it is to disconnect the battery. It won't even clear with a scan tool. I believe it gets set when the value from the IAT and coolant temp sense get too far apart from each other, or don't rise at the proper rate within a certain time span. Others on here have reported the same thing happening when running a 160 degree tstat in cooler temps.
I'm running the OEM thermostat, and according to the DIC, the coolant stays right around 200 degrees almost all the time, and goes up to about 215 when idling. This seems to be higher than what I see other folks reporting with the OEM thermostat. I know the ECM starts to pull timming at 200 degrees, so I'd like to get it to run below 200. I think if I could just get it down about 10 or 12 degrees I'd be good.
Last edited by CSixDude; Dec 11, 2010 at 07:38 PM.
The problem is that the temp gauge stops operating when one of the error codes is thrown and the only way to reset it is to disconnect the battery. It won't even clear with a scan tool. I believe it gets set when the value from the IAT and coolant temp sense get too far apart from each other, or don't rise at the proper rate within a certain time span. Others on here have reported the same thing happening when running a 160 degree tstat in cooler temps.
I'm running the OEM thermostat, and according to the DIC, the coolant stays right around 200 degrees almost all the time, and goes up to about 215 when idling. This seems to be higher than what I see other folks reporting with the OEM thermostat. I know the ECM starts to pull timming at 200 degrees, so I'd like to get it to run below 200. I think if I could just get it down about 10 or 12 degrees I'd be good.
With mine, the problem occurred when the stat opened for the first time and allowed the engine to cool under 160 degrees after it was warmed up. Motor would warm up and then cool down too far because the stat opened too quick. The PCM would think something was wrong with the temp gauge and cause all sorts of havoc.
I agree with the above posts, I have a 160 stat and my temps have varied from 176 to 203 (I've programmed my fans to specific turn-ons) with no problems whatsoever......just do it!
I still think I'd feel more comfortable with a 170-175 degree thermostat. Trouble is, I can't find one anywhere. The 180 degree thermostat is only 6 degrees lower than the OEM at 186, which isn't enough, and I think the 160 degree is too much.
Last edited by CSixDude; Dec 12, 2010 at 09:54 AM.
I still think I'd feel more comfortable with a 170-175 degree thermostat. Trouble is, I can't find one anywhere. The 180 degree thermostat is only 6 degrees lower than the OEM at 186, which isn't enough, and I think the 160 degree is too much.
Get the 160. You can adjust where the fans come on to achieve what you want in the city. On the highway it may run a tad cooler than your target in the winter.
What temp and duty cycle are your fans set to turn on? Is your car tuned? You say you have the stock t-stat, did you try the 160' and experience these issue or are they from someone elses car? I know dozens of C5/6s running 160' stats in +/- 32'F temps without issue. I believe they help control the temps by programming their fan settings accordingly.
As far as I know, they don;t make a 170' stat for our cars.