Please help me decide between these two mods
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 145
From: Northcentral, Pennsylvania
St. Jude Donor '09-'11
No tune required...
Unlike headers a 4.10 gear is immediate maximum smiles without having to get a tune, whereas headers require a tune to get the other "50%" of the benefit of installing them.
Another BIG benefit is since no tune is required you will not lose your drivetrain warranty, other than the diff you modified of course. When a tune is done if you have a catastrophic engine or transmision failure and the tune has been modified your warranty can absolutely rejected, leaving you with the bill for repairs.
Unlike headers a 4.10 gear is immediate maximum smiles without having to get a tune, whereas headers require a tune to get the other "50%" of the benefit of installing them.
Another BIG benefit is since no tune is required you will not lose your drivetrain warranty, other than the diff you modified of course. When a tune is done if you have a catastrophic engine or transmision failure and the tune has been modified your warranty can absolutely rejected, leaving you with the bill for repairs.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,886
Likes: 371
From: Cape Coral FL
Great post. I agree 1000% Go with the 4.10s you will be very pleased.
Did you ever drive one, or are you going by hearsay?
It never helps someone to give advice with unfounded experience...drive a C6 with 4.10s, you would be very surprised that what you heard is different than what you would experience. Not only is first usable, you will still retain high MPG. I did Chuck's 4.10s as one of my first mods and it was the best bang for the buck hands down...as did many of the guys I know with C6s. There's a lot of info here in tech if you search for it.
To the OP... find someone locally with the two mod setups you are considering and go for a ride to see what YOU think...its your money and only YOU know what you are looking for. Come to LI to the beach on Sundays, we can show you just about any combo you can think of.
Here are some videos to show the OP about 4.10s:
Not really true...my car with 4.10s at highway speeds...note RPM and MPG
This run was done legally at a Mile Run in FL on an airport runway by Joe_G
And this A6s 1st gear with 3.42s has a final drive ratio of 13.78 while the MN6s 1st with 4.10s has a final drive ratio of 10.91... so in essence, this A6 in 1st is equivalent to an MN6 in first with a 5.13 rear (if one existed) and this doesn't look useless to me either.
It never helps someone to give advice with unfounded experience...drive a C6 with 4.10s, you would be very surprised that what you heard is different than what you would experience. Not only is first usable, you will still retain high MPG. I did Chuck's 4.10s as one of my first mods and it was the best bang for the buck hands down...as did many of the guys I know with C6s. There's a lot of info here in tech if you search for it.
To the OP... find someone locally with the two mod setups you are considering and go for a ride to see what YOU think...its your money and only YOU know what you are looking for. Come to LI to the beach on Sundays, we can show you just about any combo you can think of.
Here are some videos to show the OP about 4.10s:
Not really true...my car with 4.10s at highway speeds...note RPM and MPG
This run was done legally at a Mile Run in FL on an airport runway by Joe_G
And this A6s 1st gear with 3.42s has a final drive ratio of 13.78 while the MN6s 1st with 4.10s has a final drive ratio of 10.91... so in essence, this A6 in 1st is equivalent to an MN6 in first with a 5.13 rear (if one existed) and this doesn't look useless to me either.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Wow,
Thank you everyone for the info and advice. After talking with chuck I am pretty sold on the idea of the 4.10's. I was kind of hesitant to start messing with the actual drive set-up because I didn't know if it would make the car almost unusable as a DD. The car is a MN6 BTW, I believe I left that out of the original post. I guess what it comes down to for me is the practicality of changing the gearing on an otherwise stock car.
Thank you all again for the great info.... Keep it coming!
Thank you everyone for the info and advice. After talking with chuck I am pretty sold on the idea of the 4.10's. I was kind of hesitant to start messing with the actual drive set-up because I didn't know if it would make the car almost unusable as a DD. The car is a MN6 BTW, I believe I left that out of the original post. I guess what it comes down to for me is the practicality of changing the gearing on an otherwise stock car.
Thank you all again for the great info.... Keep it coming!
You feel 4:10 gears every time from the minute you take off. The car feels 500 lbs lighter.
I'd do gears first. There's no real cost savings from doing one vs the other first, the muffler system has to be taken off for either and that's not hard.
Here's a dyno sheet that I think shows why gears feel so much better on the street. This is my car vs another member's car - same cam, I had 3.90 gears at the time and he had a FAST.
No it's not the same car, but look how close our HP is.
Now let me change the x-axis to speed vs rpm. you can see any any given speed, I have up to 30 more rwhp as my car is revving faster.
Next question is MPG loss with gears. I have tracked all mileage since new, and I lost exactly 1.0 mpg in my daily 45 mile drive (80% city) when I put in gears and headers (I did them at the same time).
Oh, you'll need Chuck to turn off a secondary rev limiter when you do gears, so you might as well do the tune at the same time. Good news with Chuck, if you get headers later from him he does the tune update for nada.
Last edited by Joe_G; Mar 14, 2011 at 02:37 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
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From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
Yes, and as Joe said, it will get turned off in the tune and it affects all MN6s, not just 2005. It is a secondary limiter that comes into play if you rapidly approach redline, it will kick in about 500 rpm before redline,( a demon that Joe slayed for me years ago
) which will now come up quicker with the gear swap.It is in the RPM Limit Accel Threshold vs Accel Table
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2007
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Melting Slicks
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,007
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From: Eastern PA:ECS Paxton Novi 1500(676rwhp,585tq on stock engine),LG headers, 410's, Corsa Sports, ECS Alky Kit
St. Jude Donor '08-'09
Absolutely the 4.10's.... At this point unless you plan on changing your intended future use of the car and want to cross the 1/4 mile in one less shift after you have added a big power adder (FI etc). I don't track my car and have 676 RWHP and LOVE the 4.10's, wouldn't have it any other way. First gear is not too low, and it makes it easier on your clutch for starts, and or traffic. The gears also make 6th gear much more useable. You are going to "feel" much more of a difference from 4.10's than you are from headers, no doubt about it, it really livens up the car. If I wasn't planning on big power down the road for racing gears would be my first mod for sure.
Last edited by 06.Z51.MontRed.Vert; Mar 14, 2011 at 05:24 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,314
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From: Cape May, NJ; Guntersville, AL; Orange Beach, AL
Ok I'm somewhat interested now about the 4.10's. I know 1 person with them (Z51) and he said he just wishes he had the 3.90's but loves doing 0-60 runs in 2nd. I have the non Z51 so I think that the 4.10;s might be a good choice for me. Anyone know what kind of RPM's will be at 70mph in a nonZ51 car? What is the general cost with installation? I think I have an axle seal that's leaking so its probably going to have to be torn apart soon anyway. Thought it might be a good time for a change. Don't mean to hijack but just looking for some info.
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Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2011
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From: San Antonio TX
Ok I'm somewhat interested now about the 4.10's. I know 1 person with them (Z51) and he said he just wishes he had the 3.90's but loves doing 0-60 runs in 2nd. I have the non Z51 so I think that the 4.10;s might be a good choice for me. Anyone know what kind of RPM's will be at 70mph in a nonZ51 car? What is the general cost with installation? I think I have an axle seal that's leaking so its probably going to have to be torn apart soon anyway. Thought it might be a good time for a change. Don't mean to hijack but just looking for some info.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...d-to-date.html
Former Vendor
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,792
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From: Ossining New York
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'12-'13-'14
The difference is sooooooo small...
Ok I'm somewhat interested now about the 4.10's. I know 1 person with them (Z51) and he said he just wishes he had the 3.90's but loves doing 0-60 runs in 2nd. I have the non Z51 so I think that the 4.10;s might be a good choice for me. Anyone know what kind of RPM's will be at 70mph in a nonZ51 car? What is the general cost with installation? I think I have an axle seal that's leaking so its probably going to have to be torn apart soon anyway. Thought it might be a good time for a change. Don't mean to hijack but just looking for some info.
Non Z51 car cruises at 70 mph in 6th gear at 1,975 and Z51s cruise at 2,050 rpms at 70 in 6th.
Very little difference.
FREE AXLE SEALS WITH 4.10s INSTALLATION! New Fluid too!
Chuck CoW
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
Safety Car
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,157
Likes: 37
From: North Carolina
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'11-'12
Ok I'm somewhat interested now about the 4.10's. I know 1 person with them (Z51) and he said he just wishes he had the 3.90's but loves doing 0-60 runs in 2nd. I have the non Z51 so I think that the 4.10;s might be a good choice for me. Anyone know what kind of RPM's will be at 70mph in a nonZ51 car? What is the general cost with installation? I think I have an axle seal that's leaking so its probably going to have to be torn apart soon anyway. Thought it might be a good time for a change. Don't mean to hijack but just looking for some info.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,408
Likes: 145
From: Northcentral, Pennsylvania
St. Jude Donor '09-'11
Yes, and as Joe said, it will get turned off in the tune and it affects all MN6s, not just 2005. It is a secondary limiter that comes into play if you rapidly approach redline, it will kick in about 500 rpm before redline,( a demon that Joe slayed for me years ago ) which will now come up quicker with the gear swap.
It is in the RPM Limit Accel Threshold vs Accel Table
) which will now come up quicker with the gear swap.It is in the RPM Limit Accel Threshold vs Accel Table
Are you claiming this is MN6 only and not MZ6? Thanks for the update!
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
I remember when the problem first popped up on this forum several years ago, and caught most tuners by surprise. A forum member, Nicodemus, figured out how to solve the problem by changing the value of one cell in the table. Back then I was told this was 05 specific.
Are you claiming this is MN6 only and not MZ6? Thanks for the update!
Are you claiming this is MN6 only and not MZ6? Thanks for the update!
I think the concept is if the car's spinning on a slippery surface and accelerating very quickly, the regular rev limiter might not be able to control the revs fast enough to prevent an over-rev condition so this rev limiter kicks in early to put the kibosh on the acceleration.
As the z06 and zr1 guys don't have gears available I don't think they run into this issue like we do.
Tech Contributor
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 14,950
Likes: 264
From: St. Louis, MO
St. Jude Donor '08
Plus, even with cats, you will have more exhaust smell with headers than you do with stock manifolds and cats.
But if you track the car or plan to get a cam, you need headers. They are a great mod for power if you can deal with the downsides.
So there are some trade offs with headers. Only trade off with gears is about 1 mpg.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 819
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From: San Antonio TX
Roll racing is for Honda's or Supra's. Ask me how I know, I had a very high horsepower Supra that would roast my Vette on a roll but who cares.....
People that roll race are going to end up in jail....period. Running a car at 120+ on freeway runs from a roll is just dumb in my opinion. My time in the car is spent from 0-to below 100 for the most part. Even at 90, I am risking getting hauled off in the patty wagon if I got pulled over. The gears allow me to enjoy my power where I spend the majority of my driving time, which is below 100. I would much rather have a car the gets to 100 lightning quick versus a car the goes 185. That top end power is never used day end and day out, but with gears I use my powerband all the time.
People that roll race are going to end up in jail....period. Running a car at 120+ on freeway runs from a roll is just dumb in my opinion. My time in the car is spent from 0-to below 100 for the most part. Even at 90, I am risking getting hauled off in the patty wagon if I got pulled over. The gears allow me to enjoy my power where I spend the majority of my driving time, which is below 100. I would much rather have a car the gets to 100 lightning quick versus a car the goes 185. That top end power is never used day end and day out, but with gears I use my powerband all the time.