Track Preparation Question - Brake Pads
Thread Starter
7th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Track Preparation Question - Brake Pads
I have a 2007 Corvette C6 Base and I'm thinking of taking it to the track for the first time. However, I'm not sure what to prep. My buddy told me to change the brake fluid from DOT 3 to DOT 4 (Motul if possible) and brake pads, etc. Currently, I'm looking at brake pads (purely dedicated to track), can you guys provide any advise. Noise factor isn't a concern. A quick google search showed EBC Yellow 4000 Series Stuff. Does any one have any experience of these brake pads or other recommendations would be appreciated!
Cheers!
Cheers!
Race Director
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 17,992
Likes: 280
Cobalt Friction, but they are expensive. PFC is another good brand. Carbotec is my fav for when funds are tight.
There is an autocross and roadracing forum that would fit the bill for this question. The FAQ there would be helpful for a first timer as well.
keep the sunny side up
There is an autocross and roadracing forum that would fit the bill for this question. The FAQ there would be helpful for a first timer as well.
keep the sunny side up
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,058
Likes: 9,822
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Which track will you be running at? How many miles are on your car? If you have over 50% pad life left on the stockers you probably are OK. Novice drivers don't need high performance or track pads since they don't go all that fast. Also, it isn't a good idea to go with brand new pads unless you spend some time burnishing them in before the event.
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
Thread Starter
7th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Cobalt Friction, but they are expensive. PFC is another good brand. Carbotec is my fav for when funds are tight.
There is an autocross and roadracing forum that would fit the bill for this question. The FAQ there would be helpful for a first timer as well.
keep the sunny side up
There is an autocross and roadracing forum that would fit the bill for this question. The FAQ there would be helpful for a first timer as well.
keep the sunny side up
Thread Starter
7th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Which track will you be running at? How many miles are on your car? If you have over 50% pad life left on the stockers you probably are OK. Novice drivers don't need high performance or track pads since they don't go all that fast. Also, it isn't a good idea to go with brand new pads unless you spend some time burnishing them in before the event.
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX
Which track will you be running at? How many miles are on your car? If you have over 50% pad life left on the stockers you probably are OK. Novice drivers don't need high performance or track pads since they don't go all that fast. Also, it isn't a good idea to go with brand new pads unless you spend some time burnishing them in before the event.
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
If you want to spend the money for a more track oriented pad then go with the Hawk HP+ pads or something equivalent. You can run them on the street and use them for medium heavy track duty. You are no where near needing a Hawk DTC70 race pad.
Are your rotors worn? If you have a heavy edge around the outside of the pad path then you may want to install new rotors and get them bedded in with new pads.
Change the fluid to a DOT 4 or a high temp DOT 3 (this isn't the same as regular DOT3). Ford Super Duty DOT 3 has a dry boiling point of 500 degrees, Wilwood 570 has a dry boiling point of 570, Motul is an excellent fluid. If you want the creme de la creme fluid go with Castrol SRF, just have a place to sit down handy when they tell you the price.
Flush the new fluid through the system a couple of days before the event.
Bill
, I think this response may only apply to certain drivers / certain tracks / certain instructors / etc. Even for a novice, the track can be brake-heavy and the C6 is pretty darn fast, so brake fade / brake fluid boiling / pad glazing / etc. can definitely happen the first time out. The amount of stock pad left when going out also impacts the performance. I'm sure you know this stuff, but thought I'd let the OP know my thoughts too!This thread belongs in the autocross / road racing section for sure -- they can answer this right away!
Thread Starter
7th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Respectfully , I think this response may only apply to certain drivers / certain tracks / certain instructors / etc. Even for a novice, the track can be brake-heavy and the C6 is pretty darn fast, so brake fade / brake fluid boiling / pad glazing / etc. can definitely happen the first time out. The amount of stock pad left when going out also impacts the performance. I'm sure you know this stuff, but thought I'd let the OP know my thoughts too!
This thread belongs in the autocross / road racing section for sure -- they can answer this right away!
, I think this response may only apply to certain drivers / certain tracks / certain instructors / etc. Even for a novice, the track can be brake-heavy and the C6 is pretty darn fast, so brake fade / brake fluid boiling / pad glazing / etc. can definitely happen the first time out. The amount of stock pad left when going out also impacts the performance. I'm sure you know this stuff, but thought I'd let the OP know my thoughts too!This thread belongs in the autocross / road racing section for sure -- they can answer this right away!
Tech Contributor
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 41,058
Likes: 9,822
From: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Thank you so much for such a detail reply. I actually have went once before for track day in Thunderhill in Willows, CA. I'm actually going there again. But the reason I ask now is because I went with stock braking system and I felt my brakes started fading a little bit on my C6.
If you were overheating the pads then stepping up to a higher performance pad will help although that increases caliper and rotor temps thus pushing closer to overheating the brake fluid and shortening rotor life.
If you are getting a long pedal due to pad taper you can reduce that situation by first getting on the brake pedal with less force and then once the pads are seated against the rotors increasing force on the pedal. Instead of jumping on the pedal hit it easy then push hard. This tends to reduce the tapering of the pads. About half way through your time at the track swap the front pads from one side of the car to the other with the pad from the outside right becoming the inside left pad and so on.
If you are getting a spongy pedal that is indicative of boiling the brake fluid and you will need a higher temp brake fluid and if that isn't enough you need to add some cooling air to the backside of the rotors. This also helps rotor life.
Your issue could be just one of these or a combination of them but you need to say which one you think it is.
I have seen videos of Thunderhill and though it doesn't look particularly fast it does look tight. If you are overusing your brakes or using them wrong you should try and correct those issues as well.
One thing novices do is they bring street braking techniques to the track so they hit the brakes easily and then drag them. How many times have you done this when pulling up to a stop sign or traffic light? On the street you get brake squealing. On the track this tends to build up a lot of heat in the system which leads to overheating the pads or boiling the fluid. You want to have your brake application as short as possible.
One thing you can do to determine how hard to use the brakes is to make sure there is nobody close behind you as you approach a corner and as you get to your brake point apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up or going into ABS and see how far you go before the car almost comes to a stop. At the Glen I have students do this at the end of the highest speed straight as they are getting ready to enter the bus stop. In case of misjudgement there is a 300 ft long run off area so we have plenty of safety reserve. I have them get on the brakes hard at the 600 ft marker. Depending on their and their car's ability the speed at the braking point is usually somewhere between 115 and 140 mph (experienced drivers in stock tired Z06s will be over 150). So if the car almost comes to a stop by the 300 ft marker I have them run at WOT to the 500 ft marker the next time. Since the turn can be easily be entered at over 70 mph there is no need to bring the car to a near stop but doing this exercise 3 or 54 times lets the student know there is a lot of reserve braking capability if he runs to the 400 ft mark before hitting the brakes. Once that realization comes in then we go to advancing the brake point by 50 ft increments to the point he is just coming off the brakes at the corner entry speed as he starts to turn the steering wheel. As the student gets more experienced and car speed increases the brake point will actually move back from the corner since it will take more distance to slow from the higher speed. At some point I transition them into carrying the brake into the corner like you see most drivers do on the street. The object is still to get on and off the brakes as soon as possible so the cooling air can get them cooled down before the next corner.
Bill
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Racer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX
First, lets define what you mean by fading. Did the brake pedal feel hard but the car didn't feel like it was slowing as fast as before no matter how hard you pushed, or was the brake pedal travel getting longer and longer before it felt solid with the brakes working OK once you were at the solid point, or did the brake pedal feel spongy under braking? First situation is an indicator you were overheating the brake pads, second situation is an issue with the base/Z51 calipers due to brake pad taper causing long pedal travel and the third is overheating of the brake fluid.
If you were overheating the pads then stepping up to a higher performance pad will help although that increases caliper and rotor temps thus pushing closer to overheating the brake fluid and shortening rotor life.
If you are getting a long pedal due to pad taper you can reduce that situation by first getting on the brake pedal with less force and then once the pads are seated against the rotors increasing force on the pedal. Instead of jumping on the pedal hit it easy then push hard. This tends to reduce the tapering of the pads. About half way through your time at the track swap the front pads from one side of the car to the other with the pad from the outside right becoming the inside left pad and so on.
If you are getting a spongy pedal that is indicative of boiling the brake fluid and you will need a higher temp brake fluid and if that isn't enough you need to add some cooling air to the backside of the rotors. This also helps rotor life.
Your issue could be just one of these or a combination of them but you need to say which one you think it is.
I have seen videos of Thunderhill and though it doesn't look particularly fast it does look tight. If you are overusing your brakes or using them wrong you should try and correct those issues as well.
One thing novices do is they bring street braking techniques to the track so they hit the brakes easily and then drag them. How many times have you done this when pulling up to a stop sign or traffic light? On the street you get brake squealing. On the track this tends to build up a lot of heat in the system which leads to overheating the pads or boiling the fluid. You want to have your brake application as short as possible.
One thing you can do to determine how hard to use the brakes is to make sure there is nobody close behind you as you approach a corner and as you get to your brake point apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up or going into ABS and see how far you go before the car almost comes to a stop. At the Glen I have students do this at the end of the highest speed straight as they are getting ready to enter the bus stop. In case of misjudgement there is a 300 ft long run off area so we have plenty of safety reserve. I have them get on the brakes hard at the 600 ft marker. Depending on their and their car's ability the speed at the braking point is usually somewhere between 115 and 140 mph (experienced drivers in stock tired Z06s will be over 150). So if the car almost comes to a stop by the 300 ft marker I have them run at WOT to the 500 ft marker the next time. Since the turn can be easily be entered at over 70 mph there is no need to bring the car to a near stop but doing this exercise 3 or 54 times lets the student know there is a lot of reserve braking capability if he runs to the 400 ft mark before hitting the brakes. Once that realization comes in then we go to advancing the brake point by 50 ft increments to the point he is just coming off the brakes at the corner entry speed as he starts to turn the steering wheel. As the student gets more experienced and car speed increases the brake point will actually move back from the corner since it will take more distance to slow from the higher speed. At some point I transition them into carrying the brake into the corner like you see most drivers do on the street. The object is still to get on and off the brakes as soon as possible so the cooling air can get them cooled down before the next corner.
Bill
If you were overheating the pads then stepping up to a higher performance pad will help although that increases caliper and rotor temps thus pushing closer to overheating the brake fluid and shortening rotor life.
If you are getting a long pedal due to pad taper you can reduce that situation by first getting on the brake pedal with less force and then once the pads are seated against the rotors increasing force on the pedal. Instead of jumping on the pedal hit it easy then push hard. This tends to reduce the tapering of the pads. About half way through your time at the track swap the front pads from one side of the car to the other with the pad from the outside right becoming the inside left pad and so on.
If you are getting a spongy pedal that is indicative of boiling the brake fluid and you will need a higher temp brake fluid and if that isn't enough you need to add some cooling air to the backside of the rotors. This also helps rotor life.
Your issue could be just one of these or a combination of them but you need to say which one you think it is.
I have seen videos of Thunderhill and though it doesn't look particularly fast it does look tight. If you are overusing your brakes or using them wrong you should try and correct those issues as well.
One thing novices do is they bring street braking techniques to the track so they hit the brakes easily and then drag them. How many times have you done this when pulling up to a stop sign or traffic light? On the street you get brake squealing. On the track this tends to build up a lot of heat in the system which leads to overheating the pads or boiling the fluid. You want to have your brake application as short as possible.
One thing you can do to determine how hard to use the brakes is to make sure there is nobody close behind you as you approach a corner and as you get to your brake point apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up or going into ABS and see how far you go before the car almost comes to a stop. At the Glen I have students do this at the end of the highest speed straight as they are getting ready to enter the bus stop. In case of misjudgement there is a 300 ft long run off area so we have plenty of safety reserve. I have them get on the brakes hard at the 600 ft marker. Depending on their and their car's ability the speed at the braking point is usually somewhere between 115 and 140 mph (experienced drivers in stock tired Z06s will be over 150). So if the car almost comes to a stop by the 300 ft marker I have them run at WOT to the 500 ft marker the next time. Since the turn can be easily be entered at over 70 mph there is no need to bring the car to a near stop but doing this exercise 3 or 54 times lets the student know there is a lot of reserve braking capability if he runs to the 400 ft mark before hitting the brakes. Once that realization comes in then we go to advancing the brake point by 50 ft increments to the point he is just coming off the brakes at the corner entry speed as he starts to turn the steering wheel. As the student gets more experienced and car speed increases the brake point will actually move back from the corner since it will take more distance to slow from the higher speed. At some point I transition them into carrying the brake into the corner like you see most drivers do on the street. The object is still to get on and off the brakes as soon as possible so the cooling air can get them cooled down before the next corner.
Bill
Thread Starter
7th Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
First, lets define what you mean by fading. Did the brake pedal feel hard but the car didn't feel like it was slowing as fast as before no matter how hard you pushed, or was the brake pedal travel getting longer and longer before it felt solid with the brakes working OK once you were at the solid point, or did the brake pedal feel spongy under braking? First situation is an indicator you were overheating the brake pads, second situation is an issue with the base/Z51 calipers due to brake pad taper causing long pedal travel and the third is overheating of the brake fluid.
If you were overheating the pads then stepping up to a higher performance pad will help although that increases caliper and rotor temps thus pushing closer to overheating the brake fluid and shortening rotor life.
If you are getting a long pedal due to pad taper you can reduce that situation by first getting on the brake pedal with less force and then once the pads are seated against the rotors increasing force on the pedal. Instead of jumping on the pedal hit it easy then push hard. This tends to reduce the tapering of the pads. About half way through your time at the track swap the front pads from one side of the car to the other with the pad from the outside right becoming the inside left pad and so on.
If you are getting a spongy pedal that is indicative of boiling the brake fluid and you will need a higher temp brake fluid and if that isn't enough you need to add some cooling air to the backside of the rotors. This also helps rotor life.
Your issue could be just one of these or a combination of them but you need to say which one you think it is.
I have seen videos of Thunderhill and though it doesn't look particularly fast it does look tight. If you are overusing your brakes or using them wrong you should try and correct those issues as well.
One thing novices do is they bring street braking techniques to the track so they hit the brakes easily and then drag them. How many times have you done this when pulling up to a stop sign or traffic light? On the street you get brake squealing. On the track this tends to build up a lot of heat in the system which leads to overheating the pads or boiling the fluid. You want to have your brake application as short as possible.
One thing you can do to determine how hard to use the brakes is to make sure there is nobody close behind you as you approach a corner and as you get to your brake point apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up or going into ABS and see how far you go before the car almost comes to a stop. At the Glen I have students do this at the end of the highest speed straight as they are getting ready to enter the bus stop. In case of misjudgement there is a 300 ft long run off area so we have plenty of safety reserve. I have them get on the brakes hard at the 600 ft marker. Depending on their and their car's ability the speed at the braking point is usually somewhere between 115 and 140 mph (experienced drivers in stock tired Z06s will be over 150). So if the car almost comes to a stop by the 300 ft marker I have them run at WOT to the 500 ft marker the next time. Since the turn can be easily be entered at over 70 mph there is no need to bring the car to a near stop but doing this exercise 3 or 54 times lets the student know there is a lot of reserve braking capability if he runs to the 400 ft mark before hitting the brakes. Once that realization comes in then we go to advancing the brake point by 50 ft increments to the point he is just coming off the brakes at the corner entry speed as he starts to turn the steering wheel. As the student gets more experienced and car speed increases the brake point will actually move back from the corner since it will take more distance to slow from the higher speed. At some point I transition them into carrying the brake into the corner like you see most drivers do on the street. The object is still to get on and off the brakes as soon as possible so the cooling air can get them cooled down before the next corner.
Bill
If you were overheating the pads then stepping up to a higher performance pad will help although that increases caliper and rotor temps thus pushing closer to overheating the brake fluid and shortening rotor life.
If you are getting a long pedal due to pad taper you can reduce that situation by first getting on the brake pedal with less force and then once the pads are seated against the rotors increasing force on the pedal. Instead of jumping on the pedal hit it easy then push hard. This tends to reduce the tapering of the pads. About half way through your time at the track swap the front pads from one side of the car to the other with the pad from the outside right becoming the inside left pad and so on.
If you are getting a spongy pedal that is indicative of boiling the brake fluid and you will need a higher temp brake fluid and if that isn't enough you need to add some cooling air to the backside of the rotors. This also helps rotor life.
Your issue could be just one of these or a combination of them but you need to say which one you think it is.
I have seen videos of Thunderhill and though it doesn't look particularly fast it does look tight. If you are overusing your brakes or using them wrong you should try and correct those issues as well.
One thing novices do is they bring street braking techniques to the track so they hit the brakes easily and then drag them. How many times have you done this when pulling up to a stop sign or traffic light? On the street you get brake squealing. On the track this tends to build up a lot of heat in the system which leads to overheating the pads or boiling the fluid. You want to have your brake application as short as possible.
One thing you can do to determine how hard to use the brakes is to make sure there is nobody close behind you as you approach a corner and as you get to your brake point apply the brakes as hard as you can without locking them up or going into ABS and see how far you go before the car almost comes to a stop. At the Glen I have students do this at the end of the highest speed straight as they are getting ready to enter the bus stop. In case of misjudgement there is a 300 ft long run off area so we have plenty of safety reserve. I have them get on the brakes hard at the 600 ft marker. Depending on their and their car's ability the speed at the braking point is usually somewhere between 115 and 140 mph (experienced drivers in stock tired Z06s will be over 150). So if the car almost comes to a stop by the 300 ft marker I have them run at WOT to the 500 ft marker the next time. Since the turn can be easily be entered at over 70 mph there is no need to bring the car to a near stop but doing this exercise 3 or 54 times lets the student know there is a lot of reserve braking capability if he runs to the 400 ft mark before hitting the brakes. Once that realization comes in then we go to advancing the brake point by 50 ft increments to the point he is just coming off the brakes at the corner entry speed as he starts to turn the steering wheel. As the student gets more experienced and car speed increases the brake point will actually move back from the corner since it will take more distance to slow from the higher speed. At some point I transition them into carrying the brake into the corner like you see most drivers do on the street. The object is still to get on and off the brakes as soon as possible so the cooling air can get them cooled down before the next corner.
Bill
