HPDE toe in vs toe out
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HPDE toe in vs toe out
From what I've read on the Forums it appears using a little toe out on the front, and toe in on the rear can be beneficial for a HPDE. However when displayed in degrees on your alignment sheet, is a (-) negative figure considered toe out, and a (+) positive considered toe in?
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,694
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Everything is a compromise man. Yes, extra toe can add stability, but it eat the tires a lot quicker. On a street car, you have to be careful with that. On a dedicated track machine, you can go wild. All boils down to how deep your pockets are, I guess 
.
.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Daytona Beach FL
Hmmmmm.....not necessarily!!!
As a matter of fact, most alignment shops consider a "negative" number to be toe OUT!!
I know that the popular Pfadt alignment spec sheet has a note at the top that says that "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", but that's not the way many shops consider it.
Take a look at the thread below - scroll down to post# 2 by Forum Tech Contributor Bill Dearborn for an excellent explanation:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...post1581915852
Look at his third paragraph where he says:
So.....the standard is that a negatve # is toe OUT, but some shops don't use that convention, so you just need to make it very clear what you want and what they are using so you understand what you're getting!!
That's why I do my own alignments - it's very easy, and you can be as accurate as a machine!!!
Bob
As a matter of fact, most alignment shops consider a "negative" number to be toe OUT!!
I know that the popular Pfadt alignment spec sheet has a note at the top that says that "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", but that's not the way many shops consider it.
Take a look at the thread below - scroll down to post# 2 by Forum Tech Contributor Bill Dearborn for an excellent explanation:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...post1581915852
Look at his third paragraph where he says:
Toe in is usually accepted as a positive number while toe out is a negative number although there are some machines and people who reverse the polarities. Is toe in considered negative or positive on the machine you used? You have to be careful with this as it is easy to get confused since the standard really isn't a standard.
That's why I do my own alignments - it's very easy, and you can be as accurate as a machine!!!
Bob
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The shop uses Hunter Hawkeye and the tech said (-) negative was toe out. Would that be correct for that equipment?
Thread Starter
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Hmmmmm.....not necessarily!!!
As a matter of fact, most alignment shops consider a "negative" number to be toe OUT!!
I know that the popular Pfadt alignment spec sheet has a note at the top that says that "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", but that's not the way many shops consider it.
Take a look at the thread below - scroll down to post# 2 by Forum Tech Contributor Bill Dearborn for an excellent explanation:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...post1581915852
Look at his third paragraph where he says:
So.....the standard is that a negatve # is toe OUT, but some shops don't use that convention, so you just need to make it very clear what you want and what they are using so you understand what you're getting!!
That's why I do my own alignments - it's very easy, and you can be as accurate as a machine!!!
Bob
As a matter of fact, most alignment shops consider a "negative" number to be toe OUT!!
I know that the popular Pfadt alignment spec sheet has a note at the top that says that "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", but that's not the way many shops consider it.
Take a look at the thread below - scroll down to post# 2 by Forum Tech Contributor Bill Dearborn for an excellent explanation:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...post1581915852
Look at his third paragraph where he says:
So.....the standard is that a negatve # is toe OUT, but some shops don't use that convention, so you just need to make it very clear what you want and what they are using so you understand what you're getting!!
That's why I do my own alignments - it's very easy, and you can be as accurate as a machine!!!
Bob
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 10,924
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From: Daytona Beach FL
Here's forum member David Farmer's DIY alignment info:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1634366/align.pdf
BTW, David used to have a website, but now his stuff available on Facebook. Check him out there at "David Farmer Racing".
You also said
MOST shops will use "negative" to mean toe OUT, but just check with them.
What settings did you tell them to adjust the alignment to???
They should have adjusted it very close to what you wanted and told them to set.
Edited: here's a video from the Hunter website. You can see that they identify toe like MOST alignment shops do - negative is toe out; positive is toe in:
http://www.hunter.com/videos/Toe.mp4
Bob
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1634366/align.pdf
BTW, David used to have a website, but now his stuff available on Facebook. Check him out there at "David Farmer Racing".
You also said
The shop uses Hunter Hawkeye and the tech said (-) negative was toe out. Would that be correct for that equipment?
What settings did you tell them to adjust the alignment to???
They should have adjusted it very close to what you wanted and told them to set.
Edited: here's a video from the Hunter website. You can see that they identify toe like MOST alignment shops do - negative is toe out; positive is toe in:
http://www.hunter.com/videos/Toe.mp4
Bob
Last edited by BEZ06; Nov 11, 2012 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Added Hunter video
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Verdad Gallardo
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Joined: Apr 2000
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From: Texas
Instead of talking in circles, making things more difficult than they need to be, and in general over-complicating a very simple thing, just skip the + / - debate. Tell them you either want "toe in", front of the tires pointed towards each other or you want "toe out". Let the tech worry about what the machine says.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,694
Likes: 106
From the measurement standpoing, it makes sense for toe-in to be negative, since the measurement would be less than with wheels perfectly straight. But since toe-out is rarely spec'd (if at all), then toe-in is considered positive. But to avoid confusion, especially among non-experts, I'd use the words, and clearly write them in the invoice/order, to avoid a war of words later on .
.
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Advanced
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 63
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Here's forum member David Farmer's DIY alignment info:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1634366/align.pdf
BTW, David used to have a website, but now his stuff available on Facebook. Check him out there at "David Farmer Racing".
You also said
MOST shops will use "negative" to mean toe OUT, but just check with them.
What settings did you tell them to adjust the alignment to???
They should have adjusted it very close to what you wanted and told them to set.
Edited: here's a video from the Hunter website. You can see that they identify toe like MOST alignment shops do - negative is toe out; positive is toe in:
http://www.hunter.com/videos/Toe.mp4
Bob
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1634366/align.pdf
BTW, David used to have a website, but now his stuff available on Facebook. Check him out there at "David Farmer Racing".
You also said
MOST shops will use "negative" to mean toe OUT, but just check with them.
What settings did you tell them to adjust the alignment to???
They should have adjusted it very close to what you wanted and told them to set.
Edited: here's a video from the Hunter website. You can see that they identify toe like MOST alignment shops do - negative is toe out; positive is toe in:
http://www.hunter.com/videos/Toe.mp4
Bob
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 25,019
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From: Far NW 'burbs of Chicago
St. Jude Donor '13
To answer the other part of OP's question, toe-in will make the car more stable when driving down the highway or cornering, but also makes the steering less responsive.
When I was doing autoccross in our previous C6, I started with 0 toe in front and a very slight toe-out at the rear. That worked, but made the car less pleasant to drive on the street. I ended up wth slight toe-in front and rear, the car became slightly less repsonsive but more stable and predictable both on the street and around the cones.
This is a very individual thing, what worked well for me might not be so great for you.
If you need the car to seem "twitchier", try having 3 cups of coffee before each run.
When I was doing autoccross in our previous C6, I started with 0 toe in front and a very slight toe-out at the rear. That worked, but made the car less pleasant to drive on the street. I ended up wth slight toe-in front and rear, the car became slightly less repsonsive but more stable and predictable both on the street and around the cones.
This is a very individual thing, what worked well for me might not be so great for you.
If you need the car to seem "twitchier", try having 3 cups of coffee before each run.