Supercharge?
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Instructor
Joined: Apr 2013
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From: Caledonia MI
Supercharge?
Is the eForce a really worthwhile way to go? seems like most people always just discuss cam,heads etc. is it just because cost? Im really most curious if cost was completely not a factor, what would be the mods of choice for an LS motor? oh but must still be totally drivable on a regular basis.
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The TVS has no lag, makes powder from idle up, and produces a linear HP power increase of about 50%.
Other units may produce more percentage increase in power, but may have lag, nor start producing power increase until you are much higher in the RPM range.
Other units may produce more percentage increase in power, but may have lag, nor start producing power increase until you are much higher in the RPM range.
Last edited by Dano523; May 3, 2014 at 01:11 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: God's Country, ID
Is the eForce a really worthwhile way to go? seems like most people always just discuss cam,heads etc. is it just because cost? Im really most curious if cost was completely not a factor, what would be the mods of choice for an LS motor? oh but must still be totally drivable on a regular basis.
If cost isn't a factor, definately go with a twin turbo set up. If you are on a tighter budget go with ECS or A&A.
Team Owner
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Gilbert AZ
Centri units do not have lag. They increase power from idle up.
Now the amount increased is different, but there is no lag and they add plenty down low. More than tires can handle so I don't see the point of spinning tires even easier.
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Truth is, even with the ZR-1 on a circuit track, you leave the nannies on/TM still working since 620HP is a monster to put to the ground, even with R6 tires (read way to easy to just burn through a set of rear tires in a couple of laps).
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From: God's Country, ID
Twin turbo is great for straight line racing (where you can spool up and keep the RPM up there), but where you are going to use low end torque out of a corner and need power/torque way down low in the RPM's, the power hit of the twin turbo as it spools up hard around 4K, is just too brutal to try to keep the back end stuck to the ground.
Truth is, even with the ZR-1 on a circuit track, you leave the nannies on/TM still working since 620HP is a monster to put to the ground, even with R6 tires (read way to easy to just burn through a set of rear tires in a couple of laps).
Truth is, even with the ZR-1 on a circuit track, you leave the nannies on/TM still working since 620HP is a monster to put to the ground, even with R6 tires (read way to easy to just burn through a set of rear tires in a couple of laps).
Huh? TT systems produce gobs of tq in the lower rpm range.
Please do research before you post incorrect information.
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The tvs has both the bypass valve, and the inter cooler internally, Hence a small area that is pressurized between the rotors and the intake ports on the heads.
Granted they you don't have the true lag spool up problems with the Centri units that you would with a larger turbo charger spooling up, but it still a great deal more air volume of tubing and external cooler over the TVS that has to be brought up to pressure before the intake reaches full output boost of what the Centri is pushing out.
So on a TVS power output increase, the power is pretty much linear from idle, while with a Centri unit, you have a light HP increase off idle, then as the tubing/inter cooler pressures catches up with the unit (the lag), you get a spike in the power output instead.
The cons with a TVS, you only going to make about a 60% increase in power, and trying to spin the unit faster with an undersized pulley to make more pressure, just ends up in increased heat instead.
With a Centri unit, sky is the limit of how much boost/HP you can generate instead.
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Race Director
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,858
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From: God's Country, ID
Turbo with HP graph, and nothing linear idle through Max RPM for the power , but instead you, can see where the turbo boost comes on strong/hits hard mid range to upper RPM , instead of a linear power climb through out the entire range from idle.
Corvette C5 ZO6 Turbo Dyno - YouTube
Corvette C5 ZO6 Turbo Dyno - YouTube
That's a SINGLE turbo monted in the rear.
You couldn't have picked a worse system to try to prove a misinformed point.Simply put, a decent designed twin turbo system will produce tons of tq down low as well as have a VERY linear curve. Most anyone that has the budget goes front mount twin turbo now a days.
Here's my graph with small twins, stock heads and small cam. No meth and IIRC less than 15 degrees of timing.
The tq curve is above 450ft lbs almost the entire RPM range. Not to mention with a simple meth setup/increase timing the curve would be even flatter with more hp/tq. Where's the lag and the hugh impact of brutal power at 4k rpms Dano????
A simple boost controller will control wheel spin as well as it is easy to increase boost...no pulley change no retune etc etc like with SC setup.
Again, please do your research or at least spend some time reading threads in the FI forum and compare systems.
Last edited by DSOMC6; May 3, 2014 at 08:12 PM.
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From: God's Country, ID
Turbo with HP graph, and nothing linear idle through Max RPM for the power , but instead you, can see where the turbo boost comes on strong/hits hard mid range to upper RPM , instead of a linear power climb through out the entire range from idle.
Corvette C5 ZO6 Turbo Dyno - YouTube
Corvette C5 ZO6 Turbo Dyno - YouTube
That's a SINGLEturbo monted in the rear.
You couldn't have picked a worse system to try to prove a misinformed point.Simply put, a decent designed twin turbo system will produce tons of tq down low as well as have a VERY linear curve. Most anyone that has the budget goes turbo now a days.
Here's my graph with small twins, stock heads and small cam. No meth and only 15 degrees of timing.
It's above 450ft lbs of tq almost the entire RPM range. Not to mention with a simple meth setup/increase timing the curve would be even flatter with more hp/tq. Where's the lag and the hugh impact of brutal power at 4k rpms Dano????
A simple boost controller will control wheel spin as well as it is easy to increase boost...no pulley change no retune etc etc like with SC setup.
Here's the same setup with a different but similar cam:
Don't see any lag nor huge impact of power Dano? The tq is above 500ft lbs from 2800rpm thru 6000. Pretty linear if you ask me.
Again, please do your research or at least spend some time reading threads in the FI forum and compare systems.
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DSOMC6, very usable power, and with small twins, should be no lag to really speak of, but now put a price tag your system.
You end up with close to the same with a E force for $10K installed, and with a twin turbo set up, cam and other work you noted, guessing that you are into the setup for $15K or more retail installed.
With the E force, the unit/it bearings is going to last 100K under warranty, but can the same be said for the turbo's, or even the lower end of the motor as the turbo chargers start to cake the return tubes/pan with cooked oil off the turbo's. Most Turbo's have a TBO of around 40K were the oil seal start to leak, including replacing the return lines and even pulling the motor pan to clean out the burnt oil that has collected/caked to it (from being cooked by the turbo).
Simply, the TVS has it limits on what amount of HP you can gain with it, but if you your goals are withing this amount of power increase (60% increase or less, and very linear power), it has the least amount of con's for any charging system with longevity, that is an easy drop in package.
You end up with close to the same with a E force for $10K installed, and with a twin turbo set up, cam and other work you noted, guessing that you are into the setup for $15K or more retail installed.
With the E force, the unit/it bearings is going to last 100K under warranty, but can the same be said for the turbo's, or even the lower end of the motor as the turbo chargers start to cake the return tubes/pan with cooked oil off the turbo's. Most Turbo's have a TBO of around 40K were the oil seal start to leak, including replacing the return lines and even pulling the motor pan to clean out the burnt oil that has collected/caked to it (from being cooked by the turbo).
Simply, the TVS has it limits on what amount of HP you can gain with it, but if you your goals are withing this amount of power increase (60% increase or less, and very linear power), it has the least amount of con's for any charging system with longevity, that is an easy drop in package.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Tampa, Florida
I've been debating this with my brother for over a year....he's hell bent on TT'ing his 40X c.i.d LS engine. I keep telling him a high qauality NA build will get the job done....
550-600 at the wheels with H/C/I and a tune is pretty dam good
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...p-n-a-z06.html
550-600 at the wheels with H/C/I and a tune is pretty dam good
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z...p-n-a-z06.html
Race Director
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,858
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From: God's Country, ID
DSOMC6, very usable power, and with small twins, should be no lag to really speak of, but now put a price tag your system.
You end up with close to the same with a E force for $10K installed, and with a twin turbo set up, cam and other work you noted, guessing that you are into the setup for $15K or more retail installed.
With the E force, the unit/it bearings is going to last 100K under warranty, but can the same be said for the turbo's, or even the lower end of the motor as the turbo chargers start to cake the return tubes/pan with cooked oil off the turbo's. Most Turbo's have a TBO of around 40K were the oil seal start to leak, including replacing the return lines and even pulling the motor pan to clean out the burnt oil that has collected/caked to it (from being cooked by the turbo).
Simply, the TVS has it limits on what amount of HP you can gain with it, but if you your goals are withing this amount of power increase (60% increase or less, and very linear power), it has the least amount of con's for any charging system with longevity, that is an easy drop in package.
You end up with close to the same with a E force for $10K installed, and with a twin turbo set up, cam and other work you noted, guessing that you are into the setup for $15K or more retail installed.
With the E force, the unit/it bearings is going to last 100K under warranty, but can the same be said for the turbo's, or even the lower end of the motor as the turbo chargers start to cake the return tubes/pan with cooked oil off the turbo's. Most Turbo's have a TBO of around 40K were the oil seal start to leak, including replacing the return lines and even pulling the motor pan to clean out the burnt oil that has collected/caked to it (from being cooked by the turbo).
Simply, the TVS has it limits on what amount of HP you can gain with it, but if you your goals are withing this amount of power increase (60% increase or less, and very linear power), it has the least amount of con's for any charging system with longevity, that is an easy drop in package.
My current set-up has almost 60k trouble free miles (it's my DD) and I have never ever had a turbo, oil line, nor even a fitting leak oil. Admittedly I did have the oil pan leak once which is a very common on LS2/LS3 engines. A simple retorque of the pan bolts solved the issue.Many auto mfg's have gone or are going turbo. Ford, BMW even GM has the TT Caddy now. Why do you think that is Dano? Reliablity and efficieny are two big reasons. The game has changed.
Back on op's topic, depending on budget:
turbo>SC>NA