Harmonic Balancer fell off
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 26
Likes: 1
Photo's would help to see the extent of the damage and what also may need to be replaced,
But, would go with his HB, isntead of a ATI unit.
http://www.daycoproducts.com/part?ca...ber%3DPB1117SS
As for what is needed,
The HB, a new Oem HB bolt and diamond washer, loctite, new front timing chain cover seal for the HB, a HB install tool, and flywheel lock to hold the crank from turning as you are tightening the HB bolt to spec.
The low down, you need to get the steering rack out of the way. Some have had good luck with just unbolting it and raising it up, while other lower the engine cradle so you can remove it from passager wheel well side (if you loose the engine cradle, you will need to have the front end realigned).
Once have the needed room to work for the bolt.
Start with removing the old seal from the front of the timing chain cover for the HB and install the new seal.
On the HB, do not use the crank bolt to draw the HB on to the crank!!! use a HB install tool to draw the HB onto the crank instead. The HB install tool allows for the entire threads of the crank to be used for support, and the HB is drawn onto the crack via the threads on the tools to prevent the threads in the crank from stripping out.
Once the HB drawn into place on the crank via the HB install tool and the tool removed, use some RTV to fill the crank key slot, but don't flood the slot to flow RTV out the back side of the crank slot isntead.
Now New HB retainer bolt with washer is installed with loctite and the starter removed with a flywheel lock so the crank will not turn,
Regarding the steering shaft, don't spin the steering wheel when you remove the steering column coupling from it to move the steering rake out of the way. In side the steering wheel column is a steering wheel sensor, and if the coupling is not installed back on the shaft the same none rotation shaft position, the steering wheel sensor will not read correctly.
But, would go with his HB, isntead of a ATI unit.
http://www.daycoproducts.com/part?ca...ber%3DPB1117SS
As for what is needed,
The HB, a new Oem HB bolt and diamond washer, loctite, new front timing chain cover seal for the HB, a HB install tool, and flywheel lock to hold the crank from turning as you are tightening the HB bolt to spec.
The low down, you need to get the steering rack out of the way. Some have had good luck with just unbolting it and raising it up, while other lower the engine cradle so you can remove it from passager wheel well side (if you loose the engine cradle, you will need to have the front end realigned).
Once have the needed room to work for the bolt.
Start with removing the old seal from the front of the timing chain cover for the HB and install the new seal.
On the HB, do not use the crank bolt to draw the HB on to the crank!!! use a HB install tool to draw the HB onto the crank instead. The HB install tool allows for the entire threads of the crank to be used for support, and the HB is drawn onto the crack via the threads on the tools to prevent the threads in the crank from stripping out.
Once the HB drawn into place on the crank via the HB install tool and the tool removed, use some RTV to fill the crank key slot, but don't flood the slot to flow RTV out the back side of the crank slot isntead.
Now New HB retainer bolt with washer is installed with loctite and the starter removed with a flywheel lock so the crank will not turn,
Regarding the steering shaft, don't spin the steering wheel when you remove the steering column coupling from it to move the steering rake out of the way. In side the steering wheel column is a steering wheel sensor, and if the coupling is not installed back on the shaft the same none rotation shaft position, the steering wheel sensor will not read correctly.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,911
Likes: 135
From: Thornton, CO
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,475
Likes: 785
From: Las Vegas NV
Man, that balancer came apart big time! Looks like the typical elastomer between the two parts failure. I'd say if there is no thread damage where the bolt goes into the crank it's probably ok. I assume you meant that $3500 was to replace the crank? It should cost no more than around $1200 at the dealer for the balancer replacement.
Race Director
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 16,667
Likes: 1,209
From: Raleigh, NC
St. Jude Donor '15
Man, that balancer came apart big time! Looks like the typical elastomer between the two parts failure. I'd say if there is no thread damage where the bolt goes into the crank it's probably ok. I assume you meant that $3500 was to replace the crank? It should cost no more than around $1200 at the dealer for the balancer replacement.
The bolt just literally came off and then the balancer came off the front, in one piece.
$3500 should be illegal unless it included a new crank
I'd throw a new balancer on it, ARP bolt and torque the heck out of it and call it good
Race Director
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 14,475
Likes: 785
From: Las Vegas NV
Not sure what you're looking at but the balancer is in one piece...
The bolt just literally came off and then the balancer came off the front, in one piece.
$3500 should be illegal unless it included a new crank
I'd throw a new balancer on it, ARP bolt and torque the heck out of it and call it good
The bolt just literally came off and then the balancer came off the front, in one piece.
$3500 should be illegal unless it included a new crank
I'd throw a new balancer on it, ARP bolt and torque the heck out of it and call it good
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,497
Likes: 261
From: Miami Florida
Damper or balancer? Is going to be long...
In years past with the advent of smaller more compact engine blocks the additional needed counterweight was found in the flywheel in manual transmission equipped cars however in the auto transmission equipped cars the extra weight needed to balance the engine externally was added to the crankshaft accessory belt pulley making it what is still call by some today a balancer.
The internally balanced engine such as the LS family eliminated the externally balancing weight making our engines today much easier to service.
Lest say one builds a forge block with different piston and connecting rod weight sense the balancer now has a custom balance to the different reciprocating weight when the balancer needs replacing -It will likely be a custom one- and a used balancer may not fit another engine.
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
These harmonics inside the engine block caused by high speed engine reciprocating assembly and internal combustion are responsible for destroying the harmonic dampers and causing their bolt in some engines to come loose this is normal and to be expected sense it is a service part by design (it did is work)
Not known to many but very important to engine builders and designers alike when more is asked the engine to produce the more likely the damper service weight increase becomes even more important, so when building a high output/high performance engine an under drive pulley (not a good idea) cause they carry a lower dampening weight and the person in charge of buying the damper should always consult the manufacturer of his/her choice before buying to ensure the appropriate part for that engine application.
The higher the power output the more harmonics are to be expected present internally for that engine (more dampening weight good idea)
Must manufactures have several different part numbers for same engine getting the rite part involves that all important tech call, power output engine purpose and design must be fully disclose to that tech rep.
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...ts/damserp.htm
https://innovatorswest.com/842-LSX-Damper.html
In the example above the user can opt for a pinning kit (by same manufacturer) that will land the user a crank key my choice as will not come loose again and employs triple pins kit at the end of the crank rather than on the side see bellow.
Installation PDF...
https://innovatorswest.com/instructi...structions.pdf
https://innovatorswest.com/966-Crank-Pin-Kit.html
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,497
Likes: 261
From: Miami Florida
If your new harmonic damper can easily be pushed in by hand and there's play in the damper to crankshaft relationship your crank is n/g HOWEVER if the new damper has to be pressed in your crank is good to go.
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Safety Car
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 3,807
Likes: 508
From: Oshawa, Ontario
this
Hi Michael not well known but there's quite a difference, the balancer is not employed in internally balanced engines such as engines of the LS family.
In years past with the advent of smaller more compact engine blocks the additional needed counterweight was found in the flywheel in manual transmission equipped cars however in the auto transmission equipped cars the extra weight needed to balance the engine externally was added to the crankshaft accessory belt pulley making it what is still call by some today a balancer.
The internally balanced engine such as the LS family eliminated the externally balancing weight making our engines today much easier to service.
Lest say one builds a forge block with different piston and connecting rod weight sense the balancer now has a custom balance to the different reciprocating weight when the balancer needs replacing -It will likely be a custom one- and a used balancer may not fit another engine.
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
These harmonics inside the engine block caused by high speed engine reciprocating assembly and internal combustion are responsible for destroying the harmonic dampers and causing their bolt in some engines to come loose this is normal and to be expected sense it is a service part by design (it did is work)
Not known to many but very important to engine builders and designers alike when more is asked the engine to produce the more likely the damper service weight increase becomes even more important, so when building a high output/high performance engine an under drive pulley (not a good idea) cause they carry a lower dampening weight and the person in charge of buying the damper should always consult the manufacturer of his/her choice before buying to ensure the appropriate part for that engine application.
The higher the power output the more harmonics are to be expected present internally for that engine (more dampening weight good idea)
Must manufactures have several different part numbers for same engine getting the rite part involves that all important tech call, power output engine purpose and design must be fully disclose to that tech rep.
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...ts/damserp.htm
https://innovatorswest.com/842-LSX-Damper.html
In the example above the user can opt for a pinning kit (by same manufacturer) that will land the user a crank key my choice as will not come loose again and employs triple pins kit at the end of the crank rather than on the side see bellow.
Installation PDF...
https://innovatorswest.com/instructi...structions.pdf
https://innovatorswest.com/966-Crank-Pin-Kit.html
In years past with the advent of smaller more compact engine blocks the additional needed counterweight was found in the flywheel in manual transmission equipped cars however in the auto transmission equipped cars the extra weight needed to balance the engine externally was added to the crankshaft accessory belt pulley making it what is still call by some today a balancer.
The internally balanced engine such as the LS family eliminated the externally balancing weight making our engines today much easier to service.
Lest say one builds a forge block with different piston and connecting rod weight sense the balancer now has a custom balance to the different reciprocating weight when the balancer needs replacing -It will likely be a custom one- and a used balancer may not fit another engine.
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
These harmonics inside the engine block caused by high speed engine reciprocating assembly and internal combustion are responsible for destroying the harmonic dampers and causing their bolt in some engines to come loose this is normal and to be expected sense it is a service part by design (it did is work)
Not known to many but very important to engine builders and designers alike when more is asked the engine to produce the more likely the damper service weight increase becomes even more important, so when building a high output/high performance engine an under drive pulley (not a good idea) cause they carry a lower dampening weight and the person in charge of buying the damper should always consult the manufacturer of his/her choice before buying to ensure the appropriate part for that engine application.
The higher the power output the more harmonics are to be expected present internally for that engine (more dampening weight good idea)
Must manufactures have several different part numbers for same engine getting the rite part involves that all important tech call, power output engine purpose and design must be fully disclose to that tech rep.
http://www.atiracing.com/products/da...ts/damserp.htm
https://innovatorswest.com/842-LSX-Damper.html
In the example above the user can opt for a pinning kit (by same manufacturer) that will land the user a crank key my choice as will not come loose again and employs triple pins kit at the end of the crank rather than on the side see bellow.
Installation PDF...
https://innovatorswest.com/instructi...structions.pdf
https://innovatorswest.com/966-Crank-Pin-Kit.html
Last edited by irok; Aug 30, 2016 at 12:49 PM.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,497
Likes: 261
From: Miami Florida
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
Fyi the under drive damper has smaller damper weight than the stock damper.
Last edited by xBoostx; Aug 30, 2016 at 01:34 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 3,807
Likes: 508
From: Oshawa, Ontario
Kindly please read slow enough to understand.
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
Fyi the under drive damper has smaller damper weight than the stock damper.
The crankshaft pulley of today's high tech engines serve a very well define additional purpose which allow us to rev our engines high without much adverse consequence by having a harmonic dampening zero offset balanced weight added, the internal engine harmonics can be fatal when ignored causing the engine to self destruct without apparent reason.
Fyi the under drive damper has smaller damper weight than the stock damper.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 26
Likes: 1
Ok so many posts today that I couldn't get to right away so...
My apologies its is 3500 to replace the crank as well just to clarify that
Car has 70k and I understand the balancers are common to go out between 50k and 60k
What's is the preferences in the under drive balancer and over drive balancer?
It would obviously be easier to pin the dampener to the crank for now due to the fact keying it would require me to remove the entire engine and crank
My apologies its is 3500 to replace the crank as well just to clarify that
Car has 70k and I understand the balancers are common to go out between 50k and 60k
What's is the preferences in the under drive balancer and over drive balancer?
It would obviously be easier to pin the dampener to the crank for now due to the fact keying it would require me to remove the entire engine and crank
Drifting
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,634
Likes: 190
From: Austin TX
OP...look at it this way. At least you didnt have to rent a puller to get the HB off
Unfortunately you still had to take everything apart to get to the balancer.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 26
Likes: 1
Yeah now I just need to get the tool to ensure it gets pressed on all the way so I don't come to this problem again..
Le Mans Master
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 7,180
Likes: 1,546
From: Florida
Yes, listen to Schpenxel. Smart guy!BTW, I would add that I would only pin if I am using a NON OEM HB. That is because the GM balancer continues to fail, even the replacements. If you drilled that balancer/crank and pinned using a 1/4" dowel, and had to replace the HB again, you'll never get the new HB drilled to match the existing hole inn the crank.
Last edited by BlindSpot; Aug 30, 2016 at 06:22 PM.
Thread Starter
Intermediate
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 26
Likes: 1
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...r%253DPB1117SS
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp
Last edited by Kyle Michael; Aug 30, 2016 at 08:33 PM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,240
Likes: 258
From: Tampa FL
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...r%253DPB1117SS
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp
FYI
The ATI damper #917246 comes in three pieces that you have to bolt together.
No big deal but: info you should know
Drifting
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 113
From: Brick NJ
I don't know what balancers your looking at for some reason my computer won't show those links, but if your planning on some engine mods for additional horsepower, I agree you should pin the crank and i would go with ATI then also.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 3,807
Likes: 508
From: Oshawa, Ontario
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...r%253DPB1117SS
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...c-92ad6ebb5ead
Which of these 2 HB would you guys suggest and I do plan on pinning it due to the fact by the end of next year I'm looking to be pushing between 550-600whp