LTC Z06

What we know:
- The specs of the ZR1
- Various GM reports and patents on the use of CF, aluminum, magnesium, titanium and hydro-forming.
- Europe and EPA/CAFÉ regulations demanding higher gas mileage.
- Ferrari stating how they will go lighter, not more HP.
- Rear mid-engine mules have been reported to me, and to the press.

I predict the base C7:
- Aluminum hydro-formed internally stiffened frame with targa roof.
- Entire body and trunk bucket in CF, front and rear facias will remain flexible.
- More magnesium, wheels and maybe the engine block???
- More titanium, the exhaust again???
- If the CC rotors and pads can go 100K miles under normal use they will be standard, if not they will be an option. (and the price on a used C7 with near 100K miles will be very low )
- Magnetic shocks standard
- 450-500 HP w/variable valve timing and displacement on demand cruising (How it makes the HP, how many valves and camshafts is anyone’s guess)
- A true F1 tranny as an option (Not first year of production)
- If rear mid-engine AWD will be explored and may become an option (Not first year of production)
- Run flat technology will make the spare obsolete for all cars and trucks and only hard core track guys will still want a non-run flat for track days.
- The mono-composite leaf springs will stay because of the packaging they allow for not only rear mid-engine but front trunk space too.
- More electronic wizardry in the TC/AH/brake apply/magna shocks etc.
- Weight: No more than 3000 lbs

What are your predictions?

2KZ28CAM

Yes, I'd bet ulltra-low weights and lesser horsepower also. It's the best of both worlds: the engine/drivetrain doesnt have to work as hard, will be easier to stop, and will retain equal or better performance with better reliability.

Seems like a no-brainer?

Unfortunately, some of the traditionalistas may not like the fact that the interior ~may~ have to be more sparse to accomplish this.

Edit: runge_kutta may be onto something here, re: magnesium.....

Also, I'd love a true F1 shifter option (for track use).

One of the main "love it or hate it" attractions to the McLaren F1 was hearing the glorious engine behind you (for some it was way too much). For me, I think I'd like it. Not sure....

WhiteDiamond

Weight is key to getting the milage goals within sight. I don't think the Corvette is going to require as much effort as GMs bread and butter vehicles, though, as the Corvette is very close. With simple technolgies now available, the current C6 could probably get to 30mpg on the highway(EPA rated, not owner) with direct injection, some calibration tweaks and maybe DoD(although, I think it won't make it on the Vette).

I'm not sure the carbon ceramic brakes have a future based on life-time in the ZR-1, but more a future based on GM being able to get production/manufacturing prices down, WAY DOWN.

I also agree that we will most likely see more aluminum and magnesium in the next Vette, but I'm not sure it will be a large gain. The Vette shouldn't be GMs major diet effort over the next few years......

Rkreigh

here's something callaway was talking about that I find interesting.

a high performance electric with 4 wheel drive. the motors are integrated into each corner (4 of them) with a constant speed high performance, small displacement engine to power them.

this could both be very efficient, light, and run on a super capacitor to burst out of corners. chrysler built a similar very advanced lemans car that used a flywheel for this purpose too. a higher level of technology is needed for the c7. at least bring back the DOHC and rev it to the moon.

twin turbos would work for me too. my "old" c5 TTiX Z06 tiger shark is plenty light, makes good HP, and does pretty well in the bang for the buck category. but the old LPE ZR-1 is what brings the love. the LT5 is work of art to look at.

ivanjo11

I still think that the base C7 is going to keep the steel frame, the AL frame for the high volume base C7 it would be to costly to produce in mass....


My guess is that the AL frame will continue to be exclusively for the Z06and ZR-1....

But i expect the C7 weight to continue to go down....

LTC Z06

GM has said in interviews they want AL frames in the trucks.

El Puto

The only thing I really question is the Mid engine. If its an expensive set-up it may not make sense, by pushing the cost of the Vette so high. Similarly, a mid and front engine version would be really expensive. I guess it comes down to money (imagine that).

And of course, how much performance will be gained with a mid engine set-up??

WhiteDiamond

This is where GM's engineering advantage plays out. They are in a position with the knowledge they are gaining on magnesium and aluminum chassis parts that other car makes in the same price market don't have. Runge has put some good posts on this forum and if you take all that together, it is within GM's ability to drop well over 1000lbs off the truck and SUV lines. This would have a much greater affect on the future CAFE numbers than just putting a ton of engineering money into a C7 diet program. If GM can get some of this carbon fiber into a better price point, trucks and SUVs seem like a great place for some of that material as well.....Plus, 22" wheels with 15.5" CC brake rotors behind them from an OEM would be incredible(I don't see GM getting CC rotors down in price until we start seeing them on more vehicles, even if options).

jwight

With the C7 coming in 2011 or 2012, is the ZR-1 a limited run model like the Ford GT? Haven't seen anything on that yet and if they sell all they can make maybe not, but I'm guessing the ZR-1 stops with the C6 line.

At only 35K+ cars a year the Vette really isn't the key to Chevy's CAFE average; they must sell lots of bread and butter cars with high CAFE numbers to get their fleet numbers high enough to continue selling trucks and SUVs. I'm thinking more Aveo type cars in the future. The hybrid Malibu is a start but 32 mpg is nothing to brag about.

Everything being equal, the Vette needs to get smaller/lighter/less hp. Less hp??? Well, if it's smaller and lighter it doesn't need as much hp for the same performance specs. Porsche should be the Vette target not only in performance numbers but in the size and weight to get to those numbers.

Just my .02

Painrace

WOW, MAJ, good start. I bet you are very close unless the government keeps screwing things up.

Jim

Shrike6

Just my 2 cents..
If GM, or anyone, is gonna hit a CAFE standard like 35 mpg, they need to seriously put their big vehicles on a diet. i mean, downsize the SUVs and trucks, cutting weight very significantly Direct injection and variable displacement engines. More high tech diesels in trucks. Aluminum frames on everything with a separate body/frame. All the E85/flex-fuelishness needs to be ignored. It drops mileage too much.
What I would do with the Corvette would be radical, and leapfrog everything from europe and Japan, just to showcase who is really the tech leader. And I wouldn't squander the halo effect of the Corvette by failing to advertise it like GM has.
After seeing what GM did with the ZR1, they need to reexamine their priorities. To build such a marvelous engine, and drop it into an almost imperceptively altered ZO6 body is dumb. The money they wasted on the "me too" CC rotors could have been way better spent. I applaud them doing the ZR-1. It's just that with a little better thought, it could have been breathtaking.
I sure hope GM has something shattering for the C7. I've heard the execs say it's gonna be a bigger jump than the C6. Given what I've seen in the ZR-1, they need someone smarter calling the shots.
GM

Rkreigh

I think folks are a bit overestimating the impact of the CAFE and new regs. if we could just convert over to E85 wouldn't we be able to keep the muscle and crank up the boost? the vette will always be a relatively limited production car and I doubt the general will lose the "halo" car anytime soon. technology has a long way to go to build a 45 mpg vette, but hopefully enough high MPG cars will be pumped into the pipeline to keep the muscle cars going.

with the dawn of the new zr1, we will again have the fastest corvette ever built. I'm a BIG fan of the original zr-1, as the LT5 is a very cool engine, but I have to admit, the LS9 has some great features. I'd like to get an LS9 short block for my text turbo uprgrade, might work out great if the price can be kept reasonable.

jwight

Here's some info on ethanol/E85: http://zfacts.com/p/436.html

Bottom line is it takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than is contained in that gallon; you get less mpg burning ethanol, and it cost more to produce. Not only that, but the current approach of using corn to get ethanol drives up the cost of everything else corn-based, from animal feed to foods containing corn syrup. I don't see E85 as the answer to anything unless it's giving the corn growers enough profit they can afford to buy their own ZR-1.

Painrace

However, those that have invested in the governments stupidity witg ethanol have done very well. I still chose to invest in oil. O well, I guess I am just old and stupid!

TTRotary

Regarding the new CAFE requirements: that's easy - just stop producing the bloated truck-based SUVs and convert the compact trucks to a car platform. The only "real" trucks should be the GMC workhorses. The recent complaining by GM that sports cars are doomed is idiotic. The Vette is one of their most fuel efficient cars. This complaining is because they see their SUV ox being gored, which is true, and it is their golden goose right now. But that customer is disappearing fast anyway. In another 3 years, GM won't be able to sell the damn things anyway.

As for the C7, I predict 500HP in the base car as a 1st year carryover engine (C6 will get 500 HP from DIJ in the next 2 years IMO). With more technology leadership. For example, I can see CF wheels like the ones Dymag has just developed. Later who knows...electric-gas drive?

2KZ28CAM

Jim, I would follow you anywhere.

You, Sir...are a "man amongst men!!"

Trust me, this is an accolade rewarded to a VERY FEW, from this "newbee."

Runge_Kutta

C7 = GMX711 (Convertible), GMX721 (Coupe), and GMX731 (Z06)

FRAME: (All-models):
Hydroformed aluminum. Same 4.0mm thickness but larger section sizes to
take better advantage of aluminum properties. The principal materials
will still be AA5754-O, AA6061-T6, AA6063-T5/T6, and A356-T6 (See SAE
2005-01-0466). The patent application for internally reinforced
hydroformed assemblies appears to have stalled (rejected?).

======================================== ========================
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
Application Serial Number = 20050279049)
======================================== ========================

SUBFRAME: Following the C6-Z06, the C7 will have both front
and rear magnesium subframes/crossmembers. The C6 part was
made of high-pressure die cast (HPDC) magnesium alloy AE44
(See SAE 2005-01-0340). To enhance producibility, I bet they
use low-pressure permanent mold processes.

======================================== ========================
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...2g_osborne.pdf
http://www.thefabricator.com/MetalsM...le.cfm?ID=1793
http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a
======================================== ========================

TRANSMISSION: The manual is likely to stay as the Tremec TR-6060.
For high-horsepower models, the new ZR-1 clutch is probably a good
indicator of what will be used. Automatic equiped cars will likely
get the soon-to-be-launched eight-speed automatic transmissions.

======================================== ========================
http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?...ate=vaaehp.1.1
Trademark Electronic Search System; Serial number: 78947287
Click "tradmark," click "Search" on top right, Click "Structured Form Search,"
In "Search Term," enter 78947287 and hit "Submit Query."
======================================== ========================

They will be designed to reduce transmission length. These A8
transmissions will have "friction launch" will may allow the
removal of the torque converter.

======================================== ========================
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
Application Serial Number = 20070184933
Application Serial Number = 20060254872
======================================== ========================

ENGINE: Well, I'm sure I sound like a stuck record here but
I'll try one more time. The new Gen V small-block will have a 3V
valve architecture:

======================================== ========================
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-111-9-26.pdf (page 32-33)
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-115-4-22.pdf (page 32)
http://media.gm.com/division/2004_pr...OHV_3valve.pdf
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6505589.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6505591.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6668546.html
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6962134.html
======================================== ========================

I think the key features will be 1) A 3V head configuration, 2) Centered
Direct Injection, 3) Variable valve timing, and 4) DoD/AFM. All blocks and
heads will be aluminum. While magnesium blocks are being studied, Gen V
will use one type of block only and it is too early for GM to commit to
so many magnesium or magnesium/aluminum blocks.

======================================== ========================
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesa..._materials.pdf
(see page 67 in the document ot page 19 in the .pdf file)
======================================== ========================

Steel will still be the material of choice for the connecting rods, valves, crankshaft,
and camshaft.Titanium is still too expensive for the base models except maybe
something like valve retainers. It will be interesting to see if the single camshaft
steals the idea of a "cam-in-cam" variable valve timing from the 2007 Viper
V10.

======================================== ========================
http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-115-4-22.pdf (page 32)
======================================== ========================

All in all, the Gen V small block won't look terribly different from
the outside than the Gen IV engine. The really big changes are the ability
to accept DI and the 3V configuration. The DI should increase the thermal
efficiency of the engine a fair amount and thus improve mileage. I don't
think early versions of Gen V engines will operate in fancy off-stoichiometry
(lean) modes. I bet the exhaust manifold and the rest of the exhaust system
looks basically like C6. After they've done a 3V-DI-VVT-AFM engine, it's
not clear what other tricks they will have to increase performance
and thermal efficiency. I don't know if HCCI set-ups make sense for this
type of car.

Added: http://corvetteactioncenter.com/spec...s3_future.html

WhiteDiamond

I would be surprised if GM goes DoD on the Vette. It will add too much to the exhaust system weight, unless GM comes up with a really good way to reduce the changes from V8 to 4 cylinder frequencies. The trucks/cars are good for DoD, as they typically have much more exhaust system structure/weight.

I have a Dodge Ram with the MDS system and every aftermarket exhaust system for this vehicle(and any other with MDS), brings the switch from V8 to 4 cylinder to your ear very clearly.

Edit: I should add that the MDS trucks have 3 mufflers, not including the cats, to take care of the sound in stock configuration.

Runge_Kutta

SUSPENSION:

With the advent of high-temperature magnetorheological fluids, I
think all C7's may have something like what is in the C6-ZR1.

======================================== ========================
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html
Application Serial Number = 20070063166
======================================== ========================

Otherwise, I suspect that the C7 suspension will look quite similar
to the C6 suspension.

MAGNESIUM APPLICATIONS:

From SAE 2005-01-0734, Table 4. Potential automotive application of wrought
magnesium components

Interior:
Instrument panel, Seat components, Trim plate

Body:
Door inner, Tailgate/liftgate inner, Door/roof frame, Sunroof panel,
Bumper beam, Radiator support, Shotgun, A and B pillar, Decklid/hood inner,
Hood outer/fender, Decklid/door outer, Dash panel, Frame rail

Chassis:
Wheel, Engine cradle, Subframe, Control arm

LTC Z06

Runge even if the patent application for internally reinforced
hydroformed assemblies has stalled would that prevent GM from using it?

WhiteDiamond, how does DoD add weight to the exhaust system?