And you can have that big block if you want. Just yank that whimpy little LS3 out of your car and stuff a crate 572 in there. If you're willing to pay, someone's going to be willing to help you make it work. GM's not going to put that 572 in there because it would cost too damn much for the few that would go for it. As far the guy in office, that discussion belongs in that other section on this forum. Just know that he didn't create all this global warming, fuel shortage, hoopla. He's just reacting to the tree huggers that gave him the job. And how smart can he be anyway, I mean, considering what was on the plate two years ago, why would anybody in their right mind want that job? Like I said, it doesn't matter who is in that chair, the road is already paved. At least until the world sits back, lights up a cigar, and realizes that it is better to enjoy a short life than endure a long one. Then maybe we can start having some fun again.

Oh yeah, in the mean time, I'll keep ordering my thick cut steaks rare, put lots of real butter on my potato, and feed the broccoli to the dog.

 

But Imagine if they made it an option. Think how great that would be to have 4 or 5 engine options like in the 1960's. Interior upgrade options etc. Everybody's satisified. Don't tell me it cost too much. If they go bankrupt again they may wish they'd tried something that set them apart from Ford. Look at all the 911 versions.

 

Well let's see. A zr1 owner will have to chime in because far as I know I've never heard of the tvs or the eaton on cobras or gt500 needing service except at super high miles. As in 100,000 mile intervals. And besides what's your saying is maintenance is required. So by your logic every engine sucks since they won't last 50,000 miles without oil changes. And oil changes are just maintenance. And no forced induction engines are not worse off the na engines. The zr1 comes with a 100,000 mile warranty right? How many cheaper acura and mazdas have forced induction, make decent power, and still have standard warrantys? Now no company will warranty a 11.5 compression engine running 18 psi because that isn't safe. The zr1 is safe. Just as making a na engine with 14 compression ratio an making it run on 91 octane isnt safe.

I can't comment on the mustang thing as I've never heard that. HOwever getting 4+ inch strokes to go to 7,000 rpms, how many ls7 prototypes were blown up? So they lost some mustang engines in development. If Chevy said they simply bored and stroked an ls2 and picked certain parts, and got it right after two test engines would you believe them? Every prototype tends to blow, that's why they are prototypes. The ones that survive usually are as close to the production engine as possible. So what's your point? Not to mention the cost of the ls7 and its parts, it better do something at least as amazing as the 5.0. And about that torque. Look how close it is to an ls3 while being over a litter smaller. But that's not it you realize right? A dohc design inheritly has less torque usually. Using variable value timing they did away with tons of that. So just think what a pushrod will have for an overall powerband. You can quote me now that this new engine will have 410 lbft at least. And the curve will be as good as the ls3's in a car that they want to weigh over a hundred pounds less. Also the specs of the engine parts majorly determine output. The Enzo's 6.0 has 485 lbft compared to the ls2.s 400. While still being a dohc design and still retaining a good curve.

As for p&m. Their car weighs what around 2800lbs costs close to 200,000 dollars and you have no proof its more reliable. In fact why do they give a 3 year vs 5 year if its so much better and reliable? Not to mention you said it runs rings around the ls9? You realize it isn't as powerful as the ls9 and I'd be willing to bet the curve on it isn't as good at all. But, the car is lighter so probably faster yes. Overall amazing car, not the best and far from safest motor. Look at ls1 vs lt1. Same size almost. You think they got that better power and reliability just by putting a h/c package on it? Tons of r and d along with new advances in engine management.

And im not jumping fences about anything. Progress for power? Well ferrari the ls9 and others deliver. They are investing all this money on what do you think? Simply better quality metals? No they are investing on better parts, more advanced ecm's, direct injection systems, and other techy tricks.

 

Think about it from a simple buy in bulk save money idea. Think of buying 5 of 2 things vs ten of one. Those ten things will likely be cheaper right? Now say Chevy has to sell 4 of either of the 5 things to break even and the fifth is profit. Or the sell 6 of the of the one of ten item and the other four are profit. So they can either risk selling six and only breaking even or they can try to sell 4 each of the other two(eight things total) and only breaking even. Now think about the grandsport. Hybrid of base and z parts. They just bought even more of the z's fenders and bumper while selling something "all new" and charging more for something that cost a fraction of their profit. They effectively bought another set of ten while making profit beyond the 5th sold instead of 6th. Now the z06, zr1, grandsport, and base vette all have different shocks and springs. They calculated right and enough is bought of each model that they make a profit, despite having to make 4 kinds of shocks.

Now. Let's compare the ram jet fuel injected 502 vs the ls7 as applied the the z06. They are somewhat similar in getting the numbers up, 505 vs 500 and 475 vs 565. Their cost generally is around 3k different from what I just looked up. Now due to the way lower redline of 7k vs 5800, and the almost too much torque of the big block, the ls7 odds are would make the z run better in every sense. Maybe not but odds are. But there is the 10 percent who'd just rather have cubes, why, I dunno. I'd rather be fast then think I'm fast. Now due to the added weight of the big block they need to adjust shocks, springs, tires and redesign a large part of the car around that engine. So now they have to make a profit on the small batch of 502 specific parts. So now the 502 z06 costs 5,000 more then the current one, weighs more and performs worse. Would you buy it? Plus, and I dunno how big of a concern this is but I'm sure gm cares some. If a mag tests the 502 and its worse then competition let alone the ls7, that's sort of a slap in the face to gm and the 502 buyers paying that premium.

 

For starters I wasn't talking about the Pratt & Miller CAR, I was talking about the ENGINE. Which was kept in the low 600 range for daily reliability. And no it does not have 14:1 compression, but it does have a power band that puts the LS9 to shame.
Also, I was not talking about (developmental) problems with the new 5.0! I am talking about systems that they had to incorporate into the engine to help keep it together under high loads, and how they also are using many electrical systems instead of using engine power. Which is fine as long as you understand if GM used the same tech, then the LS3's power rating would be more like 470 instead of 430.
Once again you sound as if you will be more than happy to see the Gen 5 be smaller with only similar power numbers, you seam to have little interest in improved numbers's,just improved technology. Which leads me to believe for all of the things you think you know about engines, you have never actually built any, which is fine, but many Corvette owners love to work on their engines, for people like you it doesn't matter. You would just assume pay a shop to modify your engine (which you would probably never do anyway because 410hp is enough for you) but for everyone else who likes to get their hands dirty, these new engines are going to scare away many people from the aftermarket hobby. 10 years from now you are not going to see many teenage boys under the hoods of their 2010 Mustang GT's. And people like you are going to be paying $400 for someone to change your spark plugs which is great news for people like me!

 

You do realize that more than one company makes 502 cubic inch LS blocks right? They are the same outside size and weight. You are trying to compare a 2007 design big inch small block to a 1968 design big block Their would be no added weight, just a better power to weight ratio. Do you know the difference?

 

For drag racing. Nothing replaces cubic inches if you're looking for raw hp.

 

You guys are missing the point of making the Gen 5 at 5.5L and producing the same or slightly higher horsepower. Sales! Ok they introduce the C& and you buy it because of the new look , new interior etc. Gas milage is up the car is lighter and the performance is better. The the 0-60 will improve slightly unless they get real traction gains , but the qtr will be better. Year 2 or 3 they introduce the Z at 6.3 liters and 550HP lighter still lighter. Yahoo they next year they up the base engine up 6.0 liters and 4865 HP and the Z to 6.5 an d 575HP. The next year they into the ZR1 again at 6.2 liters and 700HP and the next the Z06 at 7 liters and 635hp.

In that time 7 years they have sold 3-6 cars to the same guy. And 1-3 to the rest.

If they brought out the 6.2liter base at 500HP and the 7 liter at 600 HP and the LS9 at 735HP. What would they do to induce the repeat buyers over next 7 years?

Marketing and Sales......

 

I just looked and cant find a single dyno of the 8.2 online somehow. I know ya gotta know where to look but geez i thought everything was online. Regardless of a dyno sheet, I can just look at the specs and tell you I'd bet my left... um... man part that the curves of the 8.2 are not better in any fashion then the ls9. None of it adds up. Lower redline, lower peak hp, torque is higher but even with that kind of stroke and that many cubes the tvs probably still beats it out.

And electrical systems in the mustang help it make power??? Its a dohc variable valve engine. For that size I expect it to make at least that much power. Think im crazy? Look in 96. The new dohc Cobra made 305 hp while the 1.1 liter larger lt1 made 300. All because its a dohc. The Cobra even made 300tq, though still 40 less then the vette. Im not super impressed by the mustangs number honestly, though the curves do not show the lack of low end that a dohc normally does which is impressive. As for GM not using whatever these electronics are your reffering to, well, dont handicap them just cause they CHOOSE not to. Did you ever try to handicap ford just because they used 5.0 while Chevy used 5.7? Companies bring what they have to the table and it better be enough. Which is fine, because now with this new engine all the latest updates to engines lately will be tacked on to it(vvt, di, who knows what else chevy did say it would have one other innovative feature).

And actually, 16 years from now when somebody gets their license, they will be under the hood of the 2011 GT. Stuff nowadays isnt necissarily harder then before. Its just different. There are kids nowadays that look at tunning using a wideband O2 nothing. But heck if they had to even figure out how to adjust the air/fuel on a carb(yes i know its that easy im 22 but my dad is 60 so I have quite a diversified view of cars). Older guys today have no clue about some of the electronics in cars, but heck if they cant make a solid lifter run like crazy. Its just a different time period. Police carry guns to protect. Guns cost more and are more complex then bow and arrows, so are guns a bad thing to carry? Yes money is starting to add up, but fact is there are and have always been restrictions on almost everything. Nothing new here, companies are finally accepting this and working around and even working in advance to beat these restrictions. And not everybody buys a vette to make it a monster. Theres the aftermarket for that. Chevy doesnt need to make that. Thats why there is a z06 and zr1. Why do you feel the next base vette needs to have 500hp?

False. That mind set should have been dead and burried a long long time ago. Technology, forced induction, and NOS. I myself prefer N/A engines. However, take a 350 and make it a 383. If it was only about racing then I would much rather run a safe 6-8psi via twin turbos into that 350. You would have to run some decently radical parts in that 383 to make the same power of that 350 running 8psi on maybe even 91 octane. Now granted run 8 psi into that 383 and its gonna make more power. But as far as overall goal using one method. Huge cube engines are not needed and are far from the most efficient.

 

Just a side note on the Pratt & Miller car. The engines are built by Katech and use a Dart short block. Two years ago when P&M started producing these for the public, there were three options, stage 1, stage 2 etc. The stage 1 came at a price tag of $130,000 after you supplied the Z06.

To use this as an example. If GM were to offer different engine packages, i.e. the 502, they would have to nearly redesign the rest of the car just to accomidate it. Drive train, suspension, chassis, the whole nine. The cost of checking that little box would drive the car well into six figures if GM hoped to make even a small profit. They would have to design and make parts. This would mean retooling plants, training workers and the like. All of this after the engineering nightmare of making it all work within the reality of regulation, safety, and of course warranty issues. Then they would have to write and publish Field Service Manuals to include these "boutique" cars. They would have to train techs on all of the specs and proceedures. No, they would just as soon leave that headache to the folks at P&M or Calloway to figure out. The tuners can do it simply because they have the money before they buy the parts. They're gauranteed their profit because they already put in the bank.

This is exactly why they went to just simply making the different models, base, Z06, ZR1, etc. Save the option boxes for those that like to tinker with buttons and switches and all the cheap easy stuff. You want more power, buy the whole package. It's just better business for them. I mean really, just go out to your Vette, open the hood, and ask yourself, "what would i have to do to fit a big block in here".

 

Really, explain the 10 second Honda Civic. I've seen them at the track. I admit, not too pretty to watch, but fast as hell.

 

BINGO. Tried, but couldnt have said it better myself.

Exactly. Heck to better fulfill the needs of the customer(the ones with the money that want something more, not just the ones that want something more for nothing), dealers are authorized Callaway builders/distributers. There is one 10 miles from me actually. sells camaros and corvettes right on the showroom... for a price. 400hp? By a vette. 500hp? Buy a callaway vette or want more a total different package by a z06. 600hp? There is a callaway or the zr1 for that. The base vette needs no changes because its meant to cater to a certain buyer. Some that can afford a z06, still dont because its not what they want. Power is not the vettes only game(though if you stop to look as ive said their target weight for the base c7 is 3100lbs so yes, the c7 will in fact be faster especially if it has a better powerband and more rpms then the ls3).

 

I'm talking Pro mod, pro stock, top fuel, top alcohol. Big blocks with blowers. But sure, you can go the twin turbo route.

 

Well, yeah, but there is a universe of difference between 0-120 in 10 sec. and 0-300 in 4 seconds. Oh, and did you know that on an average 1/4 run, a top fueler will use about 13 gallons of fuel? I wonder how that would fit into the CAFE curve?

Oh how I do love standing trackside when those top fuels take off! There's just nothing out there quite like it.

 

The PR&C side of this forum is full of President Obama haters, you may want to take this nonsense over there. Just a thought.

 

No I think I'll stay here and annoy you Obama worshipers. You like the new CAFE standards, do you? Maybe a tree hugger? I guess I hit a nerve.

 

So now everyone who doesn't just swallow your POLITICAL RANTS is an Obama worshipper, loves CAFE, and hugs trees?

Yes, the nerve you hit is that you bring POLITICAL INVECTIVE into a Forum where IT IS NOT ONLY INAPPROPRIATE, BUT EXPLICITLY NOT ALLOWED. And then you basically call people names. KNOCK IT THE #$@! OFF, YOU POLITICAL BULLY. NOW. We don't want it here, it doesn't belong here, there's a place for it ELSEWHERE, you constantly skirt the edge of the rule and are ABUSING THE SYSTEM AND JACKING UP THIS FORUM.

It's all about context, and your snide thinly-veiled political sniping doesn't fit the context.

.Jinx

 

The ONLY reason I mention Obama's name here is that he took over GM which made my vette. I'm a vette fan. Also, he boosted CAFE standards which will increase the cost of cars and resulted in a reduction in size of the vette engine which prompted this thread. He wants to tell you what to drive but either you don't see it, don't care or are cheering him along.

 

Right wing lunatics do not have that ability. The political is just entertainment, you should not take any of them seriously. But with that said, if you need the my side is right and yours wrong mentality to float your boat, go ahead. I made the suggestion of the PR&C because this forum provides specific locations for various subjects, and there is a place for politics.

New CAFE standards, I'm fine with the new or the old either way. It is all good, if I wanted a large block, I would have picked up a C-6 Z06 but I'm not a straight line driver, I prefer the twist and turns, and the guys that turn the fastest lap times where I go are driving small block light weight cars. If you are serious about straight line performance you would be better off with a solid rear axle car, and they are getting more and more hard to find.

 

Time to end this take it to PR&C.