Racer X

Let me ease your conscience. It doesn't work that way. If you are cruising on the highway at 75mph and it only takes 30HP to maintain speed and your engine is producing 60HP (at the wheels) then you are accelerating. That's just the way it works when you have the ability to run at part throttle. Now it may not have the best BSFC at that RPM and throttle position, but the horsepower it takes to maintain speed it takes maintain speed is the power it takes, gas or electric all other things being equal.The number of joules of energy expended may be different for gas or electric, but the HP at the wheels will be the same.

Right now the financials just don't work out for hybrids for the average owner. The additional cost buy the hybrid far exceeds the additional fuel used by the non-hybrid for many miles more than the average consumer keeps their new car. It is an emotional buy not a good finanical decision at this point.

LS1LT1

I agree, at some point that likely will happen....




....but it won't be in only 10 years.
In 10 years it will likely be a much higher percentage than now for sure, but certainly not most.

Jim_Lammers

I can't find any comments at all about pricing for the new NSX, can you provide a link? The Lexus LF-A was priced at $225k, are you sure you aren't thinking of that one?

This article says they will create a production NSX based on the concept, as soon as 2015. We all know a lot can change from concept to production but I think it looks pretty neat so far.

However, if like the Lexus supercar the price point is well above $100k, then they will only sell a few of them and it will be pretty much off the radar for most of us!

Jim

LS1LT1

The Toyota LFA is actually closer to $400k.
Unless you're talking about that other newer car they had at the show?

jb_va2001

Lexus LFA "Starting at $375,000" so $400K would be close.

The color & interior choices are pretty amazing. Have some fun and build your own online.

http://www.lexus.com/models/allVehic...dex.html?BYL=1

range96

To the Honda forum where it belongs. Did you buy the 10 GS yet? Or you're waiting for the C7, C8, C9...

All you've accomplished is to bring out all the uneducated greenies...

I'm so sorry I clicked on this thread. Good bye.

Dudeurgettnavette

Hybrid = junk

m48xhp

ok i'll be more polite this time.....

.....please explain your position.

SCM_Crash

Is there any particular reason you don't like them? That's what I just don't understand and I'm trying to be open minded about that opinion, but I just don't see the point.

BluegrassMotorsport

I simply do not like the idea of electricity powering my car in that way. It seems like a lazy and expensive way of answering a question that no one asked. Alternatives today such as direct injection and diesel motors are achieving similar and sometimes better fuel economy than that of hybrids, so why buy one? Save money by buying a cheaper vehicle that gets almost the same or higher mileage. That is simply my opinion the matter

BobRBob

Hybrid technology can be used to improve fuel economy or to enhance performance. It is only marginally effective at the former but can be extremely effective at the latter. I'm fine with hybrid boost in a sports car or luxury car. I'd love to see it in the C7 (no chance, just saying I'd like it).

LS1LT1

While I too have little to no interest in buying/owning a hybrid or electric vehicle, I can certainly appreciate their benefits/advantages from a fuel economy/clean air/emissions viewpoint as well.
As a performance car enthusiast, I am also thankful for them because I believe those types of cars do help bring down the overall production vehicle fuel consumption totals, potentially allowing us to continue to buy/own the turbocharged/supercharged/V8 gas powered offerings currently available to us, for a little longer at least.





I can somewhat see your point here. I mean we all agree that there is likely a very legitimate need to reduce fuel consumption and attempt to reduce or at least limit our dependency on foreign (or even domestic) oil, correct? I mean, the stuff isn't cheap now as it is and it likely won't last forever either.
Hybrids and/or EVs are certainly one method of achieving that, but so are 1.4L turbos and turbo diesels that get 50+mpg on the highway as well.

I think what some are discussing here is the 'have your cake and eat it too' perspective, that one can have fuel efficiency AND high performance all in one if they would simply adopt/embrace this hybrid technology, and I suppose they could be right.

hig4s

research the environmental of building these so called environmentally green cars..

Toyota batteries start in lead mines in Canada in an old facility that has huge variances to current environmental rules grandfathered to it. They then travel the world to be produced, from Canada, to France, to China (because of French environmental regs) then to Japan and back to North America to be put in Camrys.

Not to mention the life expectancy of batteries and disposal issues.
And when we actually get to 10% or more of these vehicles on the road, how will be supply the extra demand on electricity? And what impact will that have on the environment?

SCM_Crash

Didn't read the other posts, I see.

I don't believe batteries have a place in hybrids. I believe super-caps, flywheel energy storage and inductive energy transfer are the real keys to making real environmentally friendly cars. We don't have any battery technology yet that is environmentally friendly. Even so, there have been lots of scams about aluminum batteries that are environmentally friendly, but these types of scams just set us back rather than help us progress. This is why I don't put stock into battery-based hybrids.

I don't put too much stock into 100% electric cars for the same reason. But with inductive charging, there's a possibility of a battery-free electric car in the far off future (20-40 years).

SCM_Crash

I've never heard of a car that gets better fuel efficiency than a hybrid with equal or better performance to the hybrid. Sure there's the CRX HF that got 42MPG average, but it also was a danger on the freeway because it had hardly enough power to push itself around.

While most hybrids don't reach the fuel economy the manufacturers promised, I have yet to see any similar performing vehicles that can even equal the economy of a series based hybrid.

The laws of thermal dynamics and energy conservation show that no combustion engine will equal the efficiency of an electric motor.

BluegrassMotorsport

I have my opinion, you have yours. That is where I am leaving it.



On topic: Why is this thread still in the C7 section? lol

SCM_Crash

There's that word opinion used wrong again... I was stating that (unless you have real examples) you're wrong about any gas-only vehicle matching the economy AND performance of a hybrid. Please, enlighten me.


Because C7 is in the title. LOL

hig4s

So far, other than batteries, these are no closer to being useful on a mass scale then hydrogen. And in the long run, the production of these things will be far less environmentally sound than the production of hydrogen. Sure, these things would be great if we could get superconductors to work at normal temps. And yes there have been great strides in getting them to work at temps much warmer than -400 degrees, but it is still a very long way off if possible at all.



New Civic CRZ 122hp 2600lbs rated at 40mpg is getting in the real world 36 to 38,, and the new Hyundia Elantra 140hp 2700lbs is rated 40 mpg and in the real world gets 42 to 45mpg. I researched them because I considered buying both of them instead of my 2011 Vette and saving to buy a next gen Vette instead of a C6.

SCM_Crash

Don't forget FLYWHEEL storage... That's already being used and is doing quite well. They're cheap, they aren't harmful to the environment, they don't have a cycle life and they don't even require any sort of electric drive system. If you have something bad to say about flywheel energy storage, I'd be surprised if the point is valid.

Porsche and buses use it, I can't imagine that there's a draw back other than a little added weight. But the GT3R ran it and was kicking major butt on the track until the POS Porsche motor blew up... But if it wasn't for that, they would have won first place.

According to this page (http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f24916b) the Elantra doesn't get anywhere near 42-45MPG real world. It gets 35-36MPG real world. The only time people were able to get higher than an average of 36MPG was when they reset their MPG gauge while on the highway already at cruise. But when they actually drive between city and highway, they average lower than a hybrid. Why is that relevant? Because nobody ONLY uses the highway. You have to get off the interstate to get to your destination.

But more importantly, look at this: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....31216&id=32012

You'll see that these claims aren't just mine, but MANY people with the Elantra make the same claim. While the CRZ actually does as it claims. The average for the CRZ is still better.

But I'll give you this, that they are VERY close and that's impressive to me.

hig4s

If you want to assume Hyundai owners are not being truthful and Honda owners tell the truth, I don't know what to say.

But I registered on several Hyundai and Honda forums and talked to people that actually own them. And those driving MOSTLY freeway with the Hyundai were getting 42 to 45mpg freeway and averaging 40mpg overall.

Majority on the Honda forums with the CRZs complained that no matter what the ratio between city and freeway, they never got 40mpg.

The poll over at the crzforum had over 50% of the owners getting 38mpg or less.

Certainly driving style has a lot to do with it.. On Top Gear they took a Toyota Prius and ran it 10 laps as fast as it would go, it averaged 17mpg, and while doing this they followed it with a 400 plus HP BMW M3, and it averaged 19mpg at the same speed.

I average over 24mpg with my Corvette because I usually drive conservatively.