Evaluating the possibility of AWD in the C7... discuss!
12-29-2012, 07:32 PM
#41
I pushed 690awhp and 673 ft/lbs though my 09 gtr's awd system with no problems, and zero mods; it is a very strong and very well engineered system.
the new gtr's with the new transmission are pushing well over 800awhp without any mods, few aftermarket upgrades ad they hold over 1400 crank hp, 1200 at the wheels......
the new gtr's with the new transmission are pushing well over 800awhp without any mods, few aftermarket upgrades ad they hold over 1400 crank hp, 1200 at the wheels......
12-30-2012, 04:32 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
daixloxbmw:
Putting the LS7 in a few Camaros, in that platform's final year, after C6 production has ended, hardly makes your point. I nearly mentioned this out in my first post but thought, "surely he won't be that tediously pointless." The Camaro swan song does not for an instant change the fact that GM designed and built the LS7 in small volumes for a single automobile. This last hurrah was not even a gleam in their eye in 2005. The Camaro was scarcely a clay model at the time.
So no, the LT1 with a front output shaft is not so different a business case. Small volume specialty engine for a single small volume version of the Corvette.
You missed the point of the CRV comparison -- these onroad AWD systems are very very seldom operating in AWD in the first place. You make a huge deal about "the clutches are slipping all the time when in AWD" but if that's almost never, i.e. only when there is slippage at the rear wheels, it's not enough to put the system into immediate meltdown. Whether it's a 100K mi solution, that is indeed unknown -- but while we can have our doubts, we can't say with any certainty that it can't work or it's a definite problem. The system is too new. And the way Ferraris tend to be (not) driven, it could be years before there's a consensus on it.
Look, I don't particularly trust that it's a good answer, and I'd not take seriously anyone who says "sure no problem accept the AWD reality," but it's not so easily dismissed on technical grounds. It's lighter weight and easier to package than the GTR system and doesn't raise the CG.
.Jinx
Putting the LS7 in a few Camaros, in that platform's final year, after C6 production has ended, hardly makes your point. I nearly mentioned this out in my first post but thought, "surely he won't be that tediously pointless." The Camaro swan song does not for an instant change the fact that GM designed and built the LS7 in small volumes for a single automobile. This last hurrah was not even a gleam in their eye in 2005. The Camaro was scarcely a clay model at the time.
So no, the LT1 with a front output shaft is not so different a business case. Small volume specialty engine for a single small volume version of the Corvette.
You missed the point of the CRV comparison -- these onroad AWD systems are very very seldom operating in AWD in the first place. You make a huge deal about "the clutches are slipping all the time when in AWD" but if that's almost never, i.e. only when there is slippage at the rear wheels, it's not enough to put the system into immediate meltdown. Whether it's a 100K mi solution, that is indeed unknown -- but while we can have our doubts, we can't say with any certainty that it can't work or it's a definite problem. The system is too new. And the way Ferraris tend to be (not) driven, it could be years before there's a consensus on it.
Look, I don't particularly trust that it's a good answer, and I'd not take seriously anyone who says "sure no problem accept the AWD reality," but it's not so easily dismissed on technical grounds. It's lighter weight and easier to package than the GTR system and doesn't raise the CG.
.Jinx
12-30-2012, 06:27 AM
#44
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A LOT more testing would have been done, more spy shots, more everything... The GTR is taller and can afford to have multiple shafts going back and forth under the car. The Corvette cannot. And considering that GM already stated this will be the lightest modern Corvette ever, I'd say the chances of an AWD Corvette are about as good as the chances of the back seats happening; none at all.
I think it's time to bury the hatchet on the AWD argument. It's not going to happen, please put away your picket signs and just accept the fact that the Corvette is a RWD car.
12-30-2012, 07:21 AM
#45
Melting Slicks
with as much emphasis as they have been putting on weight -- it would be retarded to throw an extra 100lbs worth of shafts/diffs/transmission on the front end.
The one thing the corvette has always been great as is K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) big engine, simple layout, and the less fluff the better. Besides - AWD is just more opportunities for something to go wrong. I'd have zero interest in an AWD vette, GM is going to be doing good to sneak that *** ugly rear end by us anyway.
The one thing the corvette has always been great as is K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) big engine, simple layout, and the less fluff the better. Besides - AWD is just more opportunities for something to go wrong. I'd have zero interest in an AWD vette, GM is going to be doing good to sneak that *** ugly rear end by us anyway.
12-30-2012, 09:38 AM
#47
daixloxbmw:
Putting the LS7 in a few Camaros, in that platform's final year, after C6 production has ended, hardly makes your point. I nearly mentioned this out in my first post but thought, "surely he won't be that tediously pointless." The Camaro swan song does not for an instant change the fact that GM designed and built the LS7 in small volumes for a single automobile. This last hurrah was not even a gleam in their eye in 2005. The Camaro was scarcely a clay model at the time.
So no, the LT1 with a front output shaft is not so different a business case. Small volume specialty engine for a single small volume version of the Corvette.
You missed the point of the CRV comparison -- these onroad AWD systems are very very seldom operating in AWD in the first place. You make a huge deal about "the clutches are slipping all the time when in AWD" but if that's almost never, i.e. only when there is slippage at the rear wheels, it's not enough to put the system into immediate meltdown. Whether it's a 100K mi solution, that is indeed unknown -- but while we can have our doubts, we can't say with any certainty that it can't work or it's a definite problem. The system is too new. And the way Ferraris tend to be (not) driven, it could be years before there's a consensus on it.
Look, I don't particularly trust that it's a good answer, and I'd not take seriously anyone who says "sure no problem accept the AWD reality," but it's not so easily dismissed on technical grounds. It's lighter weight and easier to package than the GTR system and doesn't raise the CG.
.Jinx
Putting the LS7 in a few Camaros, in that platform's final year, after C6 production has ended, hardly makes your point. I nearly mentioned this out in my first post but thought, "surely he won't be that tediously pointless." The Camaro swan song does not for an instant change the fact that GM designed and built the LS7 in small volumes for a single automobile. This last hurrah was not even a gleam in their eye in 2005. The Camaro was scarcely a clay model at the time.
So no, the LT1 with a front output shaft is not so different a business case. Small volume specialty engine for a single small volume version of the Corvette.
You missed the point of the CRV comparison -- these onroad AWD systems are very very seldom operating in AWD in the first place. You make a huge deal about "the clutches are slipping all the time when in AWD" but if that's almost never, i.e. only when there is slippage at the rear wheels, it's not enough to put the system into immediate meltdown. Whether it's a 100K mi solution, that is indeed unknown -- but while we can have our doubts, we can't say with any certainty that it can't work or it's a definite problem. The system is too new. And the way Ferraris tend to be (not) driven, it could be years before there's a consensus on it.
Look, I don't particularly trust that it's a good answer, and I'd not take seriously anyone who says "sure no problem accept the AWD reality," but it's not so easily dismissed on technical grounds. It's lighter weight and easier to package than the GTR system and doesn't raise the CG.
.Jinx
Now consider my point with the modified LT1 with front output shafts, where could you possibly use this engine other than an AWD C7? There isn't another single car under GM's massive umbrella that could potentially use it. Having a front output shaft basically limits it to be used only in an mid-engine/AWD chassis and GM doesn't have one other than this theoretical AWD C7.
We can argue all day long regarding what the original intention was for the LS7 but the fact is, it can be and will be used in other applications other than the Corvette, while the LT1 with a front output shaft cannot and that is my point.
Your point about the FF's AWD system beign easier to package is true but to make that work, you need a special engine with two output shafts. So while it is true that the AWD components are easier to package, the entire engine needs to be redesigned (repackaged) to make this system work. So that might be easier for the drivetrain designers but it is more work for the engine designers. Also, the FF's AWD system is much lighter than the GTR's AWD system for two major reasons:
1.) The FF's AWD system can only transmit up to 20% of power to the front, whereas the GTR's AWD system can transmit up to 50%. The ability to handle more torque obviously means heavier and stronger components, so this accounts for some of the weight difference. The lack of the second drive shaft accounts for some more weight difference.
2.) The FF's AWD system was not intended to be used full time. It needs to be turned on by the driver by selecting Snow or Comfort mode and at most, it only operates in the lower four gears. The GTR on the other hand has a full time AWD system that does not need to be turned on and operates in all gears.
So I agree that the FF's AWD system is lighter than the GTR's but it is important to note that it also has some limitations, when compared to the GTR.
Although we might disagree on the impact clutch slipping has on the FF's AWD components, I think we can both agree that the average number of miles driven on an FF vs a GTR would require the GTR to have components that are much more reliable (therefore heavier) than the FF.
12-30-2012, 10:35 AM
#48
A LOT more testing would have been done, more spy shots, more everything... The GTR is taller and can afford to have multiple shafts going back and forth under the car. The Corvette cannot. And considering that GM already stated this will be the lightest modern Corvette ever, I'd say the chances of an AWD Corvette are about as good as the chances of the back seats happening; none at all.
I think it's time to bury the hatchet on the AWD argument. It's not going to happen, please put away your picket signs and just accept the fact that the Corvette is a RWD car.
People who seem worried about this 'purity' of the brand surprise me. The Corvette will always have a RWD-only model and NOBODY is suggesting otherwise. And even when you look at the Ferrari AWD model, the RWD is always dominant.
It is a viable option for many who do want AWD and spend big money to do so. Is it the majority of existing Corvette owners? No. Is it a possible and very doable idea (along with a great new interior and continued performance advances) to convince competitor's customers to jump ship? You bet it is. Will some version of it happen sometime during the C7 generation? It certainly could.
Porsche has 12 models of the 911 that are AWD. Why doesn't Corvette offer even one?
We will see the Viper make yet another charge at the RWD Corvette this year. Do you really expect the Viper to take none of the C7's market share? What will differentiate the Corvette this time to new/existing audiences?
Differentiation is a powerful marketing force and to those who are wont to dismiss the Corvette because they see it as an "old man's car", some differentiation from it's past that points to it's future could be a very good thing. A well-done AWD Corvette could help with that.
12-30-2012, 10:49 AM
#50
Heel & Toe
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i think the new E63 will have AWD , i have owned an R8 and a GTR but never a corvette , the R8 is for showing off and the GTR is fun for the track that i never took my car to it , i drove Z06 and that thing blow off my mind , i had enough of AWD cars , i just want to have some fun
12-30-2012, 11:09 AM
#51
Safety Car
I'm hoping AWD will be offered as on option on base or higher HP models.
While the ZR1 has puts out a ridiculous 638hp for the past 3 years, its primary complain is that most of that power is unusable on the street. Physics applies here. There is simply no way for a RWD car to get that much power to ground, on street tires, without spinning its tires all the way thru 4th gear. Even in the hands of a professional, we see the ZR1 which has a 133hp advantage.. is barely faster than the Z06 around the same racetracks with the same driver.
And its not like AWD is some taboo technology, that doesnt belong on a sports car. Every major sportscar manufacture already offers this capability on a top performing the vehicle. Porsche has it available on the 911. Lambroghini has it on both the Gallardo & Aventador. Ferrari has it on FF. Nissan has it on the GTR. Audi has it on the R8. Even the worlds fastest production car, the Veyron has it. You have to be a fool to think that AWD technology somehow makes the car less. If anything GM is falling behind the competition AGAIN, by not offering this technology in their flagship vehicle (same goes for a DCT).
More important than performance however, is safety. Anybody who has driven any C6 (base, GS, Z06, ZR1) knows about the traction issues this car has. Too much gas even in a perfectly straight line and you can quickly get sideways. Too much gas coming around a corner or slick road and you can quickly end up in a ditch or wrapped around a tree. For these reasons alone nobody will drive even my base C6, except for me. It is entirely too easy to get yourself in trouble with this much power on tap.
For those who want the added performance benefit.. or for those who just want the extra safety & peace of mind. It would make sense for GM to atleast offer an AWD option on its next generation flagship vehicle. Bitch & cry all you want about your RWD Corvette. Nobody is saying you cannot have that. But for those who want the added traction & assurance of AWD.. dont shut the door in our face.
While the ZR1 has puts out a ridiculous 638hp for the past 3 years, its primary complain is that most of that power is unusable on the street. Physics applies here. There is simply no way for a RWD car to get that much power to ground, on street tires, without spinning its tires all the way thru 4th gear. Even in the hands of a professional, we see the ZR1 which has a 133hp advantage.. is barely faster than the Z06 around the same racetracks with the same driver.
And its not like AWD is some taboo technology, that doesnt belong on a sports car. Every major sportscar manufacture already offers this capability on a top performing the vehicle. Porsche has it available on the 911. Lambroghini has it on both the Gallardo & Aventador. Ferrari has it on FF. Nissan has it on the GTR. Audi has it on the R8. Even the worlds fastest production car, the Veyron has it. You have to be a fool to think that AWD technology somehow makes the car less. If anything GM is falling behind the competition AGAIN, by not offering this technology in their flagship vehicle (same goes for a DCT).
More important than performance however, is safety. Anybody who has driven any C6 (base, GS, Z06, ZR1) knows about the traction issues this car has. Too much gas even in a perfectly straight line and you can quickly get sideways. Too much gas coming around a corner or slick road and you can quickly end up in a ditch or wrapped around a tree. For these reasons alone nobody will drive even my base C6, except for me. It is entirely too easy to get yourself in trouble with this much power on tap.
For those who want the added performance benefit.. or for those who just want the extra safety & peace of mind. It would make sense for GM to atleast offer an AWD option on its next generation flagship vehicle. Bitch & cry all you want about your RWD Corvette. Nobody is saying you cannot have that. But for those who want the added traction & assurance of AWD.. dont shut the door in our face.
12-30-2012, 04:16 PM
#52
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2009
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I think it is actually just the beginning of the AWD argument as AWD systems are lighter and can handle more power today than ever before.
People who seem worried about this 'purity' of the brand surprise me. The Corvette will always have a RWD-only model and NOBODY is suggesting otherwise. And even when you look at the Ferrari AWD model, the RWD is always dominant.
It is a viable option for many who do want AWD and spend big money to do so. Is it the majority of existing Corvette owners? No. Is it a possible and very doable idea (along with a great new interior and continued performance advances) to convince competitor's customers to jump ship? You bet it is. Will some version of it happen sometime during the C7 generation? It certainly could.
Porsche has 12 models of the 911 that are AWD. Why doesn't Corvette offer even one?
We will see the Viper make yet another charge at the RWD Corvette this year. Do you really expect the Viper to take none of the C7's market share? What will differentiate the Corvette this time to new/existing audiences?
Differentiation is a powerful marketing force and to those who are wont to dismiss the Corvette because they see it as an "old man's car", some differentiation from it's past that points to it's future could be a very good thing. A well-done AWD Corvette could help with that.
People who seem worried about this 'purity' of the brand surprise me. The Corvette will always have a RWD-only model and NOBODY is suggesting otherwise. And even when you look at the Ferrari AWD model, the RWD is always dominant.
It is a viable option for many who do want AWD and spend big money to do so. Is it the majority of existing Corvette owners? No. Is it a possible and very doable idea (along with a great new interior and continued performance advances) to convince competitor's customers to jump ship? You bet it is. Will some version of it happen sometime during the C7 generation? It certainly could.
Porsche has 12 models of the 911 that are AWD. Why doesn't Corvette offer even one?
We will see the Viper make yet another charge at the RWD Corvette this year. Do you really expect the Viper to take none of the C7's market share? What will differentiate the Corvette this time to new/existing audiences?
Differentiation is a powerful marketing force and to those who are wont to dismiss the Corvette because they see it as an "old man's car", some differentiation from it's past that points to it's future could be a very good thing. A well-done AWD Corvette could help with that.
I really don't think the Viper is going to take much of the the market share of the Corvette. It may bite into the sales of a "ZR1" type trim. But certainly not the base C7. The Viper is well over $100K. Anyone who could only afford half of that isn't going to buy a Viper even if the Viper somehow came with AWD rather than the Vette. And it's not like there's a "cheaper" version of the Viper. They're ALL expensive. And low production at that.
I'm not sure I'm a purist. I'm not so sure I WOULDN'T get the AWD model if it was offered. I just don't want it to BE offered. Basically, I'm on the fence about AWD. Really, I like driving RWD sports cars. There's a challenge to it and they're far more fun when you want them to be. They're less gas hungry and so on. If GM figured out a way to do something like the FF does, but on a switch you can turn it off - two clutches would disengage, one from the engine and one from the wheels so you're not dragging gears in neutral - I might say this is the best of both worlds. But I doubt they'd do that.
BTW, Porsche NEEDS AWD. Those cars suck without AWD. (They suck anyway.) When I worked at the Porsche shop, I can tell you how many Porsches of all sorts came in from being rolled or wrapped around a light poll. LOTS of them. Nearly half. Then a good 25% in front-end collisions and the rest burned up some how. Considering this shop mostly only picked up the Porsches getting wrecked in this area, it surprises me that this many Porsches get wrecked that often. I have a very good feeling that this isn't the case with Corvettes. AWD doesn't save the Porsche drivers. But then again, Porsche drivers are often times much younger than Corvette drivers. Go figure.
EDIT:
One more thing. If they went the route of the FF, there's no way to do a manual with AWD. It would HAVE to be an automatic.
Last edited by SCM_Crash; 12-30-2012 at 04:20 PM.
12-30-2012, 04:37 PM
#53
Le Mans Master
No, I didn't miss it AT ALL. Your point simply isn't valid. It most certainly does matter that the original ROI for the LS7 needed only the Corvette to justify it. It demonstrates that there is precedent and potential ROI for a new variant smallblock designed for an FF-like AWD system for Corvette, nevermind whether it is or is not applicable elsewhere.
The group is called GM Powertrain -- same guys. The more significant difference is it doesn't have massive implications for the entire vehicle. If you'd read or remembered All Corvettes Are Red you'd appreciate that difference.
Finally, the limitations of FF's system have been well-covered already; are you reiterating them, again, because you like to hear yourself talk? Indeed, your whole post is mere repetition. You bore me. This topic is dead. Again.
.Jinx
Your point about the FF's AWD system beign easier to package is true but to make that work, you need a special engine with two output shafts. So while it is true that the AWD components are easier to package, the entire engine needs to be redesigned (repackaged) to make this system work. So that might be easier for the drivetrain designers but it is more work for the engine designers.
Finally, the limitations of FF's system have been well-covered already; are you reiterating them, again, because you like to hear yourself talk? Indeed, your whole post is mere repetition. You bore me. This topic is dead. Again.
.Jinx
12-30-2012, 05:04 PM
#54
No, I didn't miss it AT ALL. Your point simply isn't valid. It most certainly does matter that the original ROI for the LS7 needed only the Corvette to justify it. It demonstrates that there is precedent and potential ROI for a new variant smallblock designed for an FF-like AWD system for Corvette, nevermind whether it is or is not applicable elsewhere.
The group is called GM Powertrain -- same guys. The more significant difference is it doesn't have massive implications for the entire vehicle. If you'd read or remembered All Corvettes Are Red you'd appreciate that difference.
Finally, the limitations of FF's system have been well-covered already; are you reiterating them, again, because you like to hear yourself talk? Indeed, your whole post is mere repetition. You bore me. This topic is dead. Again.
.Jinx
.Jinx
Well, if you cannot keep up with an intelligent conversation, you can always resort personal insults.
12-30-2012, 05:20 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
I didn't kept up; I left you behind two rounds ago. You're belaboring non-points beyond all interest. That's not intelligent conversation, that's masturbation.
12-30-2012, 05:25 PM
#56
12-30-2012, 05:36 PM
#58
Seriously, you seem to want to yammer on about this and I would suggest you talk with the GTR guys since you love that system so much.
My suggestion was that the FF AWD was as good a model as there is for a potential C7 AWD system. After you made a real fool of yourself by suggesting that there were two trannys for ea. axle, I lost any real interest, knowing that the GTR's system is far too heavy AND complex to appeal to any knowledgeable Corvette owner or engineer.
12-30-2012, 05:54 PM
#59
12-30-2012, 05:57 PM
#60
Go tell the guys at Ferrari that one.
Seriously, you seem to want to yammer on about this and I would suggest you talk with the GTR guys since you love that system so much.
My suggestion was that the FF AWD was as good a model as there is for a potential C7 AWD system. After you made a real fool of yourself by suggesting that there were two trannys for ea. axle, I lost any real interest, knowing that the GTR's system is far too heavy AND complex to appeal to any knowledgeable Corvette owner or engineer.
Seriously, you seem to want to yammer on about this and I would suggest you talk with the GTR guys since you love that system so much.
My suggestion was that the FF AWD was as good a model as there is for a potential C7 AWD system. After you made a real fool of yourself by suggesting that there were two trannys for ea. axle, I lost any real interest, knowing that the GTR's system is far too heavy AND complex to appeal to any knowledgeable Corvette owner or engineer.
You think I love the GTR's AWD system? Lol, I specifically stated that I don't like the GTR and I don't even like AWD period. I started this thread in the hopes of discussing how feasible it would be to add AWD to the C7 and compared it to the GTR since it shares a similar front engine/rear transaxle layout. Any mention of the GTR was used only as a point of comparison. By your logic, you should talk to the FF guys since you love that system so much. I don't love the GTR or its AWD system but I do have respect for what it can do and that is the extent of my love of either of them.
Wow, you're still holding it against me for the bad wording, even though I clarified what I meant? I thought it was obvious that I meant to say "two transmission, one for each axle".
One final thought, I agree 100% with your comment in bold, which is why I started this thread to dispel the rumors of an AWD C7 by bringing up the difficulties of adding such an AWD system to the C7.