Would you still buy a ZR1 if he can only with DCT tranny?
03-25-2013, 06:23 AM
#41
I had an m3 with DCT, it was awesome. Made the car much faster and the rev matching down shifts sounded like a symphony. I have a zr1 now and although the 6sp is more fun the car would be much faster with a dct. A zr1 with awd, dct and current weight would be madness.
Anyone who says dct is for girls obviously hasnt driven one.
Anyone who says dct is for girls obviously hasnt driven one.
I have owned couple of Ferraris....yeah DCT is for girls.Fact
03-25-2013, 08:01 AM
#42
Team Owner
Frankly, other than racing applications torque converter automatics actually are probably a better transmission for a production street car, but right now the world is all in a tizzy over DCTs because people like you think it offers some technological benefits - most of the true advantages are attainable with an old school automatic now that they have better computer controls and are able to lock up the gears.
BTW, I'm not saying that DCT's don't have some benefits. I'm just saying that for a car that is built as a street driven car predominately, DCT's are highly misunderstood and over rated.
03-25-2013, 09:20 AM
#43
Actually, in retrospect, I don't disagree that for a street car, a DCT isn't needed. If the car is tracked to any degree, then I believe the benefits are meaningful.
03-25-2013, 12:47 PM
#44
Safety Car
A DCT is nothing more than an old school manual transmission with a few features added to make it do the shifting by itself.
BTW, I'm not saying that DCT's don't have some benefits. I'm just saying that for a car that is built as a street driven car predominately, DCT's are highly misunderstood and over rated.
BTW, I'm not saying that DCT's don't have some benefits. I'm just saying that for a car that is built as a street driven car predominately, DCT's are highly misunderstood and over rated.
DCT is not overrated. Its performance attributes are second to none and it will currently beat all other forms of shifting. This will not change because they are already attaining shift speeds that are limited due to liability and downstream drivetrain reliability, a wall that slushboxes will soon hit themselves. On this last point a lot of people think that slushboxes will put less strain on the driveline which is not correct when compared to modern DCTs.
Going back to the beginning what matters about DCT is more than performance. It has a different feel that is more sporting, more in character for a performance car. A feel that a slushbox cannot match and never will be able to match because they will remain a slushbox no matter how clever the programming, lock up, etc. They are what they are and nothing can of can turn them into a bucket of gears which is what they are not. This is the part that always screws up the people that like to pretend on here. They don't realize this and say that a DCT feels the same as an automatic. They don't. As soon as you read this you know that person has never driven one let alone spent any real time with one to learn how to drive them. Yes, they have a learning curve.
If you were to say a slushbox was a better trans for mommies soccer wagon, various luxo rides, SUVs and so on I would agree, a performance car, uh uh. Try and find a person who has owned a modern version of all three trans types, an automatic, a DCT, and a stick, that likes automatics better for a performance car. You will have a long search in front of you. Likes a stick better you can find on the first page, an auto, I didn't run into one search result and gave up after going through a number of pages. I have never met a man in life who has real familiarity with all three that has said this and like you I am a lifelong car guy who regularly attends GTGs, belongs to several car clubs, have been reading about them since I was a child, owned a shitton of cars. Hit the forums where a car is available in DCT and a and find the guy that wishes he had an automatic. You can find the wish I got a stick guys but someone wishing they would get rid of the DCT and offer an automatic? Uh uh. Again you have a long road in front of you because I haven't yet seen it and I hit those forums regularly. I'm sure there is the odd duck that would say yes, I have owned all three and like the auto better in a performance car but they don't call them the odd duck for nothing.
I definitely agree that DCTs are highly misunderstood. I think normally I will agree with you 9 out of 10. In fact sometimes I'll not respond to a post because I cant think of the right words and I figure you will wander by and say what I wanted to say better than I could figure out how to say it. This time we are going to have to disagree. DCT is a much better option in a performance car than a slushbox and it is not a close thing.
03-25-2013, 01:53 PM
#45
Calling a DCT "technologically up to date" is a pretty damn funny statement. Technologically speaking, a DCT is only newer than a slushbox. A DCT is nothing more than an old school manual transmission with a few features added to make it do the shifting by itself. An old school automatic with a torque converter actually has advantages itself over a DCT.
Frankly, other than racing applications torque converter automatics actually are probably a better transmission for a production street car, but right now the world is all in a tizzy over DCTs because people like you think it offers some technological benefits - most of the true advantages are attainable with an old school automatic now that they have better computer controls and are able to lock up the gears.
BTW, I'm not saying that DCT's don't have some benefits. I'm just saying that for a car that is built as a street driven car predominately, DCT's are highly misunderstood and over rated.
Frankly, other than racing applications torque converter automatics actually are probably a better transmission for a production street car, but right now the world is all in a tizzy over DCTs because people like you think it offers some technological benefits - most of the true advantages are attainable with an old school automatic now that they have better computer controls and are able to lock up the gears.
BTW, I'm not saying that DCT's don't have some benefits. I'm just saying that for a car that is built as a street driven car predominately, DCT's are highly misunderstood and over rated.
03-25-2013, 02:59 PM
#46
Team Owner
I get your point but I don't know that I agree. I have owned a very good automatic (the MCT in the C63) which shifts in 100ms and also a DCT on my M3 and I can tell you first hand that there is a difference in performance driving. Around town, sure, they both accomplish the same thing and the DCT may actually not be as good. However, at a track or for very spirited driving, the DCT is much better. More crisp, more mechanical, better control, multiple gear changes, etc.
Actually, in retrospect, I don't disagree that for a street car, a DCT isn't needed. If the car is tracked to any degree, then I believe the benefits are meaningful.
Actually, in retrospect, I don't disagree that for a street car, a DCT isn't needed. If the car is tracked to any degree, then I believe the benefits are meaningful.
The most important point about DCT is not the shift times and all that BS, its the portion of your post that I quoted first. A DCT in no way feels like a slushbox when you drive, it feels like a manual transmission. Not the shifting part, the way the car goes about its business. It does that because that is what it is, a good old fashioned bucket of gears just like the transmission that these children think makes them a man if they can shift it. I'll get back to this later.
DCT is not overrated. Its performance attributes are second to none and it will currently beat all other forms of shifting. This will not change because they are already attaining shift speeds that are limited due to liability and downstream drivetrain reliability, a wall that slushboxes will soon hit themselves. On this last point a lot of people think that slushboxes will put less strain on the driveline which is not correct when compared to modern DCTs.
Going back to the beginning what matters about DCT is more than performance. It has a different feel that is more sporting, more in character for a performance car. A feel that a slushbox cannot match and never will be able to match because they will remain a slushbox no matter how clever the programming, lock up, etc. They are what they are and nothing can of can turn them into a bucket of gears which is what they are not. This is the part that always screws up the people that like to pretend on here. They don't realize this and say that a DCT feels the same as an automatic. They don't. As soon as you read this you know that person has never driven one let alone spent any real time with one to learn how to drive them. Yes, they have a learning curve.
If you were to say a slushbox was a better trans for mommies soccer wagon, various luxo rides, SUVs and so on I would agree, a performance car, uh uh. Try and find a person who has owned a modern version of all three trans types, an automatic, a DCT, and a stick, that likes automatics better for a performance car. You will have a long search in front of you. Likes a stick better you can find on the first page, an auto, I didn't run into one search result and gave up after going through a number of pages. I have never met a man in life who has real familiarity with all three that has said this and like you I am a lifelong car guy who regularly attends GTGs, belongs to several car clubs, have been reading about them since I was a child, owned a shitton of cars. Hit the forums where a car is available in DCT and a and find the guy that wishes he had an automatic. You can find the wish I got a stick guys but someone wishing they would get rid of the DCT and offer an automatic? Uh uh. Again you have a long road in front of you because I haven't yet seen it and I hit those forums regularly. I'm sure there is the odd duck that would say yes, I have owned all three and like the auto better in a performance car but they don't call them the odd duck for nothing.
I definitely agree that DCTs are highly misunderstood. I think normally I will agree with you 9 out of 10. In fact sometimes I'll not respond to a post because I cant think of the right words and I figure you will wander by and say what I wanted to say better than I could figure out how to say it. This time we are going to have to disagree. DCT is a much better option in a performance car than a slushbox and it is not a close thing.
DCT is not overrated. Its performance attributes are second to none and it will currently beat all other forms of shifting. This will not change because they are already attaining shift speeds that are limited due to liability and downstream drivetrain reliability, a wall that slushboxes will soon hit themselves. On this last point a lot of people think that slushboxes will put less strain on the driveline which is not correct when compared to modern DCTs.
Going back to the beginning what matters about DCT is more than performance. It has a different feel that is more sporting, more in character for a performance car. A feel that a slushbox cannot match and never will be able to match because they will remain a slushbox no matter how clever the programming, lock up, etc. They are what they are and nothing can of can turn them into a bucket of gears which is what they are not. This is the part that always screws up the people that like to pretend on here. They don't realize this and say that a DCT feels the same as an automatic. They don't. As soon as you read this you know that person has never driven one let alone spent any real time with one to learn how to drive them. Yes, they have a learning curve.
If you were to say a slushbox was a better trans for mommies soccer wagon, various luxo rides, SUVs and so on I would agree, a performance car, uh uh. Try and find a person who has owned a modern version of all three trans types, an automatic, a DCT, and a stick, that likes automatics better for a performance car. You will have a long search in front of you. Likes a stick better you can find on the first page, an auto, I didn't run into one search result and gave up after going through a number of pages. I have never met a man in life who has real familiarity with all three that has said this and like you I am a lifelong car guy who regularly attends GTGs, belongs to several car clubs, have been reading about them since I was a child, owned a shitton of cars. Hit the forums where a car is available in DCT and a and find the guy that wishes he had an automatic. You can find the wish I got a stick guys but someone wishing they would get rid of the DCT and offer an automatic? Uh uh. Again you have a long road in front of you because I haven't yet seen it and I hit those forums regularly. I'm sure there is the odd duck that would say yes, I have owned all three and like the auto better in a performance car but they don't call them the odd duck for nothing.
I definitely agree that DCTs are highly misunderstood. I think normally I will agree with you 9 out of 10. In fact sometimes I'll not respond to a post because I cant think of the right words and I figure you will wander by and say what I wanted to say better than I could figure out how to say it. This time we are going to have to disagree. DCT is a much better option in a performance car than a slushbox and it is not a close thing.
Look at the performance of some cars today that have traditional slushbox automatics that have been set up for performance. An Audi S8 is a perfect example. In straighline performance it runs neck and neck with it's closest competitor, the Porsche Panamera Turbo S, which has a DCT - and both cars will give damn near anything on the road a good run for it's money, including a Z06 Corvette. Not bad for BIG four door sedans. It's interesting that Audi is using a slushbox in some of it's more powerful "S" variants and a DCT in others. I'm assuming it's because they know that in the big S8 the buyers likely want a smoother transmission and the advantages of a torque converter for street driving.
From a road racing standpoint where launch is a non-issue, I get that a DCT can be set up to be the better of the two which is why I made that disclaimer in my first post.
Crabman, to your comments, I think that more than a few people who say they want a DCT really are only jumping on the bandwagon. Put them in a well set up slushbox and a DCT (even a good one, there are still some out there that are not very refined) and most folks would probably want the slushbox if they didn't know what it had in it and just were going by the driving experience - on the street. GM used to say that people ask for horsepower but buy torque. Someday the same will be said for transmissions. They ask for a DCT but what they really want is an automatic but telling people they have a DCT makes them look like they are driving a more serious sports car so they don't have to get embarrassed telling folks they have an automatic. I own two cars with paddle shifters and I have only used the paddles in either of them a few times just to see what it was like. I see no reason for using them in my daily driving, which is how I use the cars. And no, having a DCT would not make me use it more.
Last edited by jschindler; 03-25-2013 at 03:38 PM.
03-25-2013, 03:29 PM
#47
Burning Brakes
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03-25-2013, 03:35 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
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I was one of the proud "purists" till I drove my friend's DCT-equipped M3. I'm pretty good at rev matching downshifts and fast upshifts, but the M3's DCT makes me look like I'm granny shifting. It's not even close. The WOT barks are an added bonus on too of the incredibly quick and precise downshifts. It's not boring at all-- you find yourself shifting just to see the powertrain do its magic.
I am on my 7th z06 so you can say I like these cars and am very experienced with manuals. But my next car will have a DCT.
I am on my 7th z06 so you can say I like these cars and am very experienced with manuals. But my next car will have a DCT.
It's apparent to anyone who HAS driven a world class DCT, that anyone who argues against DCT has NEVER driven one.
Unfortunately, you highly misunderstand DCTs and your "konwledge" of DCTs is highly overrated.
Frankly, if you do not see DCT as a huge step forward and aren't a proponent of DCT as an option you need to go drive a Porsche with PDK and educate yourself.
I drove a DCT car recently, Porsche 911, and it's just as boring as any other automatic with paddles. The ZR1 will probably have rev matching. That's as much "DCT" as I want. You've never driven a Porshce PDK. Everyone who has either wants it, or respects it.
Last edited by 427 C5; 03-25-2013 at 03:43 PM.
03-25-2013, 05:08 PM
#49
Safety Car
Another thought here however is that it should be said that someone looking for an automatic should get one. A DCT is not designed to be an automatic, its designed to be driven manually and has an automatic mode. The exact opposite of what the modern slushboxes are, they are designed to be driven in automatic and have a manual mode.
03-25-2013, 05:12 PM
#50
Le Mans Master
03-25-2013, 05:16 PM
#51
Le Mans Master
03-25-2013, 08:58 PM
#52
Team Owner
...I've enjoyed many of your posts over the year.
Unfortunately, you highly misunderstand DCTs and your "konwledge" of DCTs is highly overrated.
Frankly, if you do not see DCT as a huge step forward and aren't a proponent of DCT as an option you need to go drive a Porsche with PDK and educate yourself.///
Unfortunately, you highly misunderstand DCTs and your "konwledge" of DCTs is highly overrated.
Frankly, if you do not see DCT as a huge step forward and aren't a proponent of DCT as an option you need to go drive a Porsche with PDK and educate yourself.///
I don't use them with automatics either, whats the point? That Jim is where you are wrong though. Next time you're in the Pacific Northwest selling your widgets look me up. I'll put you behind the wheel of a car with a good DCT and a shiny 20 spot says you will not only use those paddles but come to understand why they are meaningless with a slushbox and worth the price of admission with a DCT. You will also learn quite a few other things in your post are not what you thought. Thats a real 20 spot Jim, you're in the Northwest, look me up.
Another thought here however is that it should be said that someone looking for an automatic should get one. A DCT is not designed to be an automatic, its designed to be driven manually and has an automatic mode. The exact opposite of what the modern slushboxes are, they are designed to be driven in automatic and have a manual mode.
Another thought here however is that it should be said that someone looking for an automatic should get one. A DCT is not designed to be an automatic, its designed to be driven manually and has an automatic mode. The exact opposite of what the modern slushboxes are, they are designed to be driven in automatic and have a manual mode.
03-25-2013, 09:31 PM
#53
03-25-2013, 09:42 PM
#54
Melting Slicks
I was one of the proud "purists" till I drove my friend's DCT-equipped M3. I'm pretty good at rev matching downshifts and fast upshifts, but the M3's DCT makes me look like I'm granny shifting. It's not even close. The WOT barks are an added bonus on too of the incredibly quick and precise downshifts. It's not boring at all-- you find yourself shifting just to see the powertrain do its magic.
I am on my 7th z06 so you can say I like these cars and am very experienced with manuals. But my next car will have a DCT.
Andi
I am on my 7th z06 so you can say I like these cars and am very experienced with manuals. But my next car will have a DCT.
Andi
03-25-2013, 09:50 PM
#55
Le Mans Master
The most important point about DCT is not the shift times and all that BS, its the portion of your post that I quoted first. A DCT in no way feels like a slushbox when you drive, it feels like a manual transmission. Not the shifting part, the way the car goes about its business. It does that because that is what it is, a good old fashioned bucket of gears just like the transmission that these children think makes them a man if they can shift it. I'll get back to this later.
Michael
03-25-2013, 10:27 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
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I think I have an idea what you may be thinking.
DCT's ARE manuals with a "clutch", so they don't build boost on the line like a torque converter will.
If that's the reason you have to want a DCT, then you're gonna have to find other ones.
The good news is......there are a BUNCH of other reasons to love DCT's.
DCT's ARE manuals with a "clutch", so they don't build boost on the line like a torque converter will.
If that's the reason you have to want a DCT, then you're gonna have to find other ones.
The good news is......there are a BUNCH of other reasons to love DCT's.
03-25-2013, 10:35 PM
#58
VETERAN
ZR1 with DCT for me... bring it on please!!!
I just bought a 427 and it rocks. I plan to keep it for the rest of my life.
I also have a Z06 which I track it and love it too but will sell for a 2015/16 Z06 version of the C7. I have been racing Porsches since 1982; every car has been a manual clutch until this past January when I picked up my 991 911 S with my very first DCT. This car is so extremely fast on the track. I surpassed my track record at VIR by 11 seconds with street tires using the PDK DCT. I too enjoy driving Corvettes and rowing my own gears, very satisfying; however, I have never had as much fun as I am having driving the PDK 911S. I look forward to a ZR1 or Z06 with a bat out hell fast shifting madman car. It will be fun to drive. I know it is coming, I spoke to some GM leaders in FL last week at the race. If you call driving fast cars boring using DCT you just are not driving fast enough to raise the hair on your neck.Be a fighter pilot dude, go faster, be funnier and don't be a *****.
Cheers,
Fuze
I also have a Z06 which I track it and love it too but will sell for a 2015/16 Z06 version of the C7. I have been racing Porsches since 1982; every car has been a manual clutch until this past January when I picked up my 991 911 S with my very first DCT. This car is so extremely fast on the track. I surpassed my track record at VIR by 11 seconds with street tires using the PDK DCT. I too enjoy driving Corvettes and rowing my own gears, very satisfying; however, I have never had as much fun as I am having driving the PDK 911S. I look forward to a ZR1 or Z06 with a bat out hell fast shifting madman car. It will be fun to drive. I know it is coming, I spoke to some GM leaders in FL last week at the race. If you call driving fast cars boring using DCT you just are not driving fast enough to raise the hair on your neck.Be a fighter pilot dude, go faster, be funnier and don't be a *****.
Cheers,
Fuze
03-25-2013, 10:35 PM
#59
Le Mans Master
03-25-2013, 10:47 PM
#60
Melting Slicks
QUOTE JSCHINDLER "Saying that a DCT is more efficient is like telling a hunter or a fisherman that it's easier to buy meat at the local grocery store than to go fishing or hunting."
I wish I said that first! If I was racing for a living absolutely!!!! I'm not!!!!
I wish I said that first!
If I was racing for a living absolutely!!!! I'm not!!!!
Last edited by BPHORSEGUY; 03-25-2013 at 11:05 PM.