fnbrowning

Suggest YOU re-read my post. It is all true.

Burning ethanol as a fuel has a detrimental effect on everything from corn flakes to beef, from our taxes, to the environment.

If you want to burn alcohol on the track, ethanol or methanol, fine.

But a vehicle burning the moonshine fuel gets lower gas mileage. Second, it takes over a gallon of fossil fuel (and 1,700 gallons of water) to produce a single gallon of E85.
So, demanding that you be able to fuel a street car with ethanol because you want to make more power is self-centered, self-involved, and ignorant of the unnecessary burden it puts on society.

johnglenntwo

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2013/02/...tingray-crash/

Damn those little tires on E85?

(Jeez guys!? 460 hp / 465 lb-ft equals ~ 500hp / 505 lb-ft on E85 on 245 & 285 tires, are we nuts?)

Shurshot

This is not a debate on political correctness but about 10% more power by just changing the fuel. In other words when you're going to the track put E 85 in your new Z51 equipped C7 and it will blow the doors off a C6Z06.

Nothing more nothing less. If you want to do a rant against all the evils of E 85 fuel march on down to the PRC section and knock yourself out

Fair enough?

Shurshot

It will be interesting to see the results from a conservative tuner like LPE is when they start tuning the motor. There is a difference between tuning to take advantage of the different fuel versus tuning the motor so that it remains race ready as long as the pin stays in the grenade

Shurshot

Well........

Racing is more than just driving fast, it's an adventure

Snorman

Agreed.
I think we're all waiting to see what kind of rwhp the LT1 is going to make out of the factory. I won't be surprised to see them in the ~410-420 range through the M7's and picking up ~25 rwhp with a tune only.
S.

Jawnathin

I'm not sure what is more pathetic, people who subscribe to this E85 theory or people who bench race automatic C7s vs 'bad MT drivers in C6Zs'.

Keep telling yourself whatever you need to make yourself feel better.

Snorman

Because all C6 Z06's run 11.0-11.5's right?

Anybody buying a C7 right now could just as easily buy a C6 Z. They've been offering huge discounts on those cars for a few years now.
S.

fnbrowning

This is not a debate on the political correctness, but about the scientifically irrational means to get just 10% more power by using a much greater amount of lower energy density fuel.

If you want to ignore the facts about ethanol and the engines higher specific fuel consumption, and rant against the people that point out the obvious, suggest you march on down to a religion forum where blind acceptance of half truths is accepted.

Just don't think we're gonna pay the freight for your 10% more power without speaking up about it!
That's what is fair enough.

Jawnathin

There are more C6Zs that will run 11s than C7s. And even more in the 11.0-11.5 range

And what does pricing of the C7 have to do with E85? And I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make, its not like a someone who can afford a C6Z can't afford a C7. It goes both ways pal.

Snorman

The pricing comes in because your comment reeks of the typical holier-than-thou attitude displayed in this section by lots C6 Z06 (and some GS) owners who look down their nose at the C7. I doubt many people are buying a C7 because they think it's going to be faster than a C6 Z, if that's what they wanted to make themselves "feel better", they'd just go buy a Z06.
But yeah...I know the C6 Z is just about the most badass car ever to hit the street so those of us buying C7's will be mindful of our place.

S.

OnPoint

Hopefully we can keep the politics in this thread to a minimum. I wish there wasn't a mandate, but there is. The law is on the books and it requires a minimum quantity of ethanol to be blended into the nations fuel pool, which gave birth to E85. Does the fuel get less fuel economy? Yes. Are the regulations market distorting? Yes. Is there some crony capitalism involved? Yes. Have the politicians and unaccountable regulators forced something of a boondoggle on the country with its fuel policy? Yes.

However, with all that said, I don't think most folks in here talking about either tuning the LT1 for E85 or wondering out loud why it didn't come E85 capable from the factory are staking any political position on it one way or the other. The simple fact it is it's mandated and here, and it appears GM has the capability to endow the LT1 with mapping to take advantage of the higher octane for power (it is in fact utilizing such in its new truck engines). So the hp guys are looking at it for from that standpoint. I.e. either for using it every now and then at the track (if it came E85 capable), or using it all the time understanding full well its efficiency deficit (if not E85 capable but retuned to run it).

Whether it should even exist is a whole 'nother matter. And a perfect subject for different section of the forum.

Jawnathin

Wow, I'm not quite sure how to respond to this one. The position in your reasoning is quite a stretch. There are many problems in your assessment.

First, I have nothing against the C7, I like it. I appreciate it for what it is. What I find pathetic is the excuses people keep making for it and trying to make it what its not. Its not as fast as a C6Z, get over it. The C7 doesn't have E85, get over it. These threads reek of desperation.

Second, where in my post was I looking down on the car? Show it to me. My post wasn't targeted towards the car, it had to do about people dreaming about the mythical performance due to feature it doesn't have and some how trying to pass it along as if it was a fact. The car isn't what I 'look down on'.

Third, I agree with you, not many people are going to buy a C7 because they think its faster. They're going to buy a C7 because they like it. Cool, kudos to them, I hope they enjoy it. However, similarly to your post about price, I'm not quite sure why you're bringing this up. What point are you trying to make here? If this thread wasn't about a C7 vs C6Z performance, then what is it about? If people weren't so caught up about comparing a C7 to C6Z, then why do these threads keep popping up (for the 1000th time)?

SCM_Crash

It's really funny how some people view E85. So many talk about the negative of it being lower in energy density, but don't really talk about the positives as if the lower energy density is completely out-weighs the pros of E85.

Just for a moment I want to try a hypothetical. Try to stay with me here.

Imagine for a moment we didn't use gasoline. In fact, from the beginning of internal combustion engines to now, we continued to only use alcohol as our form of fuel. Our engines were designed from square 1 to run on ethanol; running higher compressions, more timing and maybe not even ever using catalytic converters (because there'd be no need at that point, right?). The reality at this point is that our mileage probably wouldn't be too far off from what it is now. Maybe a little less.

Then one day someone creates gasoline out of oil.
"Well, we've been using alcohol for over 100 years. This gasoline sounds weird to me. What are the pros and cons of it", you ask.

Well, you get 2-3 MPG more!

You think, "WOW! That would save me a lot of money! But wait. What are the cons?"

Well, your exhaust will smell bad and pollute more.
We may need to had restrictive exhaust contraptions to lessen the pollution.
And you're going to lose power and torque.
And it will eventually cost more as it's not renewable.
And your engine won't stay clean so much, so you'll have to add soaps and run fuel system cleaners.

Now you're thinking, "I gain 2-3 MPG, but there's so many negatives. It's it worth it? How much power and torque will I lose?"

Well, you'll probably lose about 10% of your power and torque. Maybe more. Also, we will probably have to retard your timing... a LOT because your compression is so high. So you'll lose more power and torque there. Maybe another 10-15% overall. Although, you could always lower your compression for X dollars and gain some of that power and torque back.

And your thoughts are, "This doesn't sound like a good idea."



Lets face it. The reality is that the only reason some people are against E85 is because they're ignoring the benefits and focusing on the talking points that OPEC uses.

SCM_Crash

Is that why it's used in Brazil?

Where do you people come up with this crap? You mean, to make alcohol this entire time we've needed fossil fuels? Are they using Chevron or Mobil to make Jack Daniels?

Odd, it doesn't mention anything in here about needing fossil fuels until the end where they mix in some gasoline to make E85.
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Ethanol-Fuel
http://greenliving.lovetoknow.com/How_to_Make_Ethanol

Shurshot

Cars utilizing software that can tune on-the-fly to whatever fuel is burned between ethanol and gasoline produce 10% more power when being fed E85

The same car model sold in countries where E85 is not available and are not given this “tune on-the-fly ability” are rated at approximately 10% less power from the factory.

We are not talking about flex fuel ability but taking advantage of the higher octane when someone may have use for it.

If you think GM denied the C7 tune on-the-fly ability for anything else other than not wanting the C7 in its current makeup to have more power, you are only fooling yourself.

Raitzi

We produce E85 from waste food products in Finland. To me that is better than just dumping them to garbage bin burning in power plant.

BlueOx

I say forget about e85. It's production (including the additional corn, etc required to produce it) ultimately causes more waste and farm chemicals (nitrites) which are already heavily contaminating drinking water. Treating the drinking water for these nitrites adds inordinate cost to everyone.

fnbrowning

Brazil uses sugar cane, and that is a fool's argument also, because Brazil has been clear cutting rain forest to get the land for the sugar cane. Between the rain forest burn/cut, the poor quality of the rain forest soil, and the fertilizers/diesel needed to farm, it is a net loss for the environment.

SCM_Crash, with respect, are you completely
I mean, do you think before you type??

How do moonshiners make hooch in the forest?? Think man!
Answer = wood fires.
So how would a major distiller heat anything? Well, I'd imagine they progressed beyond wood burning by now, so, natural gas where available, and electrical heat when necessary.

98vert6spd

GM didnt put tune on the fly software on this car because they will sell like crazy without it,

then in a year or 2 when the buss has died down they will add it and have a 500 hp base car and everyone will get all excited again and buy that one.

then the z06 will get released in year 3. then maybe the zr1...

its all business strategy to build excitement


If they shot the entire load in year 1 we would all be pissed off by year 3 that nothing had been improved.