Car and Driver Test C7 vs 911
#41
Why? How do lap times recorded on a smooth dry track where a professional driver has practiced many times and knows all the braking points and lines and who is capable of achieving the car's maximum potential while having runoff areas in case he makes a mistake or spins out translate to real world roads with unknown traction, unknown braking points, unknown lines, and unknown traffic hazards with little to no runoff safety areas??
BOTH cars are tested by the same driver in the same environment. That creates a relative comparison of their abilities. Also, most of these tests are done with magazine editors who would be good drivers but FAR from professional drivers.
It isn't the actual "time" they recorded that matters... it is the time relative to the other car they also tested that matters.
You are right in that you can't/won't achieve this performance on the street but that isn't relevant because you won't with the 911 either. However, if one is concerned about actual performance (regardless as to whether they will achieve it on the street) then it is relevant (I know that isn't important to you based on what I have read).
#42
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
First and foremost, why don't these magazines test apples to apples. Seven speed manual to seven speed manual. That would take the 911 completely out of the performance equation. Looking at the final tally I can see certain subjective criteria that is way out of wack. Exterior design given to the beetle. You have got to be kidding me. The C7 design embarrasses the antiquated 911 design. The interior design is the same story. A dynamic driver centric interior enviroment vs. the same old staid Porsche look. The Corvette interior completely outclasses the Porsche. Those issues right there would pile up points even further to dominate the Porsche. Driver comfort and ergonomics????? No way does the Porsche have those qualities over the Vette. Fit and finish is also a wash. Corvette is much closer if not on par with Porsche in that respect.
Last edited by skank; 10-08-2013 at 10:57 AM.
#43
Melting Slicks
Really? Not sure if you are serious with your comment or if you are just missing the point of a comparison test on a track.
BOTH cars are tested by the same driver in the same environment. That creates a relative comparison of their abilities. Also, most of these tests are done with magazine editors who would be good drivers but FAR from professional drivers.
It isn't the actual "time" they recorded that matters... it is the time relative to the other car they also tested that matters.
You are right in that you can't/won't achieve this performance on the street but that isn't relevant because you won't with the 911 either. However, if one is concerned about actual performance (regardless as to whether they will achieve it on the street) then it is relevant (I know that isn't important to you based on what I have read).
BOTH cars are tested by the same driver in the same environment. That creates a relative comparison of their abilities. Also, most of these tests are done with magazine editors who would be good drivers but FAR from professional drivers.
It isn't the actual "time" they recorded that matters... it is the time relative to the other car they also tested that matters.
You are right in that you can't/won't achieve this performance on the street but that isn't relevant because you won't with the 911 either. However, if one is concerned about actual performance (regardless as to whether they will achieve it on the street) then it is relevant (I know that isn't important to you based on what I have read).
#44
Thanks. Interesting that the 911 despite having the PDK it received the same score as the C7 manual.
Main difference between the two is the vehicles category
The Slalom speed is quite slow for both cars usually these cars are in the 70's
Pretty sure that the C7 CE is going to look at this comparison to make improvements to the car in the upcoming years.
Like MT here they gave the 911 the edge in handling.
#45
First and foremost, why don't these magazines test apples to apples. Seven speed manual to seven speed manual. That would take the 911 completely out of the performance equation. Looking at the final tally I can see certain subjective criteria that is way out of wack. Exterior design given to the beetle. You have got to be kidding me. The C7 design embarrasses the antiquated 911 design. The interior design is the same story. A dynamic driver centric interior enviroment vs. the same old staid Porsche look. The Corvette interior completely outclasses the Porsche. Those issues right there would pile up points even further to dominate the Porsche. Driver comfort and ergonomics????? No way does the Porsche have those qualities over the Vette. Fit and finish is also a wash. Corvette is much closer if not on par with Porsche in that respect.
#46
Scraping the splitter.
Our resident Porsche fans are probably completely discombobulated now that a major car mag picked the C7 over the 911.
"How can this happen?"
S.
"How can this happen?"
S.
#47
Scraping the splitter.
I also loved the fact that the test scoring included the category "Rear Seat Space". Unbelievable.
S.
#49
Banned Scam/Spammer
This C7 is the Porsche boys worst dream come to life.
#50
Instructor
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Car mags gotta love them, September's Motor trend "Best drivers car" comparo has the Porsche 911 Carrera 4s on top(151K) beating SRT viper, SLS AMG black MB, Aston martin, Bentley, GTR track edition, Audi R8 V10, Jag F-type, BMW m6, and even a ford focus!!! Testing at Laguna seca for all around winner.
Interestingly they could not get GM to give them a C7 to participate. GM was not going to risk a preproduction car not doing as well as they would like this time. Can't blame them as they had little to gain and more to lose with the article coming out right when the C7 was hitting the showrooms.
A Bentley and a ford focus in the same compare lapping Laguna Seca??? CAR MAGS ARE A JOKE.
Interestingly they could not get GM to give them a C7 to participate. GM was not going to risk a preproduction car not doing as well as they would like this time. Can't blame them as they had little to gain and more to lose with the article coming out right when the C7 was hitting the showrooms.
A Bentley and a ford focus in the same compare lapping Laguna Seca??? CAR MAGS ARE A JOKE.
#51
Race Director
A few pertinent quotes from the article....
The Porsche:
".... steering marginally less precise than the Corvette's".
" It's an un-freaking-believeably good day when you get to say that another car beats this one".
The Corvette:
".... the times don't reflect how much more stable the Corvette feels at the limit".
Overall:
"The Corvette doesn't win on dollars. It wins on sense."
My conclusion:
Those certainly sound like SUBJECTIVE factors to me. It looks like the Corvette can now win on a combination of factors - some numerical, some subjective, and, oh yeah, the as tested prices of $68,375 vs $148,245.
".... steering marginally less precise than the Corvette's".
" It's an un-freaking-believeably good day when you get to say that another car beats this one".
The Corvette:
".... the times don't reflect how much more stable the Corvette feels at the limit".
Overall:
"The Corvette doesn't win on dollars. It wins on sense."
My conclusion:
Those certainly sound like SUBJECTIVE factors to me. It looks like the Corvette can now win on a combination of factors - some numerical, some subjective, and, oh yeah, the as tested prices of $68,375 vs $148,245.
#52
First and foremost, why don't these magazines test apples to apples. Seven speed manual to seven speed manual. That would take the 911 completely out of the performance equation. Looking at the final tally I can see certain subjective criteria that is way out of wack. Exterior design given to the beetle. You have got to be kidding me. The C7 design embarrasses the antiquated 911 design. The interior design is the same story. A dynamic driver centric interior enviroment vs. the same old staid Porsche look. The Corvette interior completely outclasses the Porsche. Those issues right there would pile up points even further to dominate the Porsche. Driver comfort and ergonomics????? No way does the Porsche have those qualities over the Vette. Fit and finish is also a wash. Corvette is much closer if not on par with Porsche in that respect.
I don't need a magazine to tell me what car looks better. I can make that decision myself. And what size of ***** does Porsche have selling a $130K non-Turbo 911??? What a rip off!! We're getting close to exotic priced cars and the 911 is in no way in that league!! The only way they can get rid of these things is to come up with great lease programs.
#53
They gave the 911 2 more points on looks over the Vette, really, 911's have been so dated for 10 years, wow.
The vette looks a lot like th eF12 Ferrari, and they like the 911.
Right.
Rear seat room, come on.
No wear does it show how much more fun to drive the Vette is with all that torque.
The vette looks a lot like th eF12 Ferrari, and they like the 911.
Right.
Rear seat room, come on.
No wear does it show how much more fun to drive the Vette is with all that torque.
#54
Race Director
I think my postman reads my C&D before he delivers it to me, it seems like I get mine a week after everyone is THROUGH talking about it. Can anyone scan the article and post it?
Jimmy
Jimmy
#55
Race Director
The Porsche:
".... steering marginally less precise than the Corvette's".
" It's an un-freaking-believeably good day when you get to say that another car beats this one".
The Corvette:
".... the times don't reflect how much more stable the Corvette feels at the limit".
Overall:
"The Corvette doesn't win on dollars. It wins on sense."
My conclusion:
Those certainly sound like SUBJECTIVE factors to me. It looks like the Corvette can now win on a combination of factors - some numerical, some subjective, and, oh yeah, the as tested prices of $68,375 vs $148,245.
".... steering marginally less precise than the Corvette's".
" It's an un-freaking-believeably good day when you get to say that another car beats this one".
The Corvette:
".... the times don't reflect how much more stable the Corvette feels at the limit".
Overall:
"The Corvette doesn't win on dollars. It wins on sense."
My conclusion:
Those certainly sound like SUBJECTIVE factors to me. It looks like the Corvette can now win on a combination of factors - some numerical, some subjective, and, oh yeah, the as tested prices of $68,375 vs $148,245.
Jimmy
#56
They gave the 911 2 more points on looks over the Vette, really, 911's have been so dated for 10 years, wow.
The vette looks a lot like th eF12 Ferrari, and they like the 911.
Right.
Rear seat room, come on.
No wear does it show how much more fun to drive the Vette is with all that torque.
The vette looks a lot like th eF12 Ferrari, and they like the 911.
Right.
Rear seat room, come on.
No wear does it show how much more fun to drive the Vette is with all that torque.
The C7 is the closest car in looks to a Ferrari and they picked the 911 better looking than the C7?
No way.
#57
Melting Slicks
Why? How do lap times recorded on a smooth dry track where a professional driver has practiced many times and knows all the braking points and lines and who is capable of achieving the car's maximum potential while having runoff areas in case he makes a mistake or spins out translate to real world roads with unknown traction, unknown braking points, unknown lines, and unknown traffic hazards with little to no runoff safety areas??
Last edited by B747VET; 10-08-2013 at 01:24 PM.
#58
The Consigliere
Member Since: May 2006
Location: 2023 Z06 & 2010 ZR1
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Interesting article.
Thanks for posting, OP.
Thanks for posting, OP.
#59
Drifting
I believe many people, enthusiasts in particular, buy sports cars based on the car's performance abilities... even if they don't always use the potential. A track time is the best measure of a car's OVERALL capability as it takes into account power, handling, braking, balance, etc.
When a magazine reviews a luxury car, they don't test track times. When they review a sports car they do. When I buy a sports car, I'd like to understand what the features and amenities are (as you note) but I buy it based on its look and performance. That's just me.
When a magazine reviews a luxury car, they don't test track times. When they review a sports car they do. When I buy a sports car, I'd like to understand what the features and amenities are (as you note) but I buy it based on its look and performance. That's just me.
The potential of all these cars is so great they can only come close to realizing it at the track with a very experienced driver under racing conditions.
So all the talk about the minutia of performance at racing levels doesn't do much more than provide bragging rights for those who enjoy barroom discussion about things that don't really matter.
This forum revels in it, while practical information about actual handling, ergonomics and useable acceleration on the street isn't to be found. Likewise, quality gets little consideration while the nuances of "steering feel" between 911 and C7 gets dissected to a fine point. I agree, steering feel is important but my C6 is excellent and so is the 911. And the complaint about the C6 was that it is a handful at the limit. That limit is so far from what I'll ever experience on the street as to be no negative at all.
Numbers are great but if movie reviews only reported the number of killings, explosions and words of dialogue they wouldn't be of much use. It seems thats about all track tests do.
#60
James May, Top Gear BBC U. K. - Nurburgring times and the feel of cars
"I may be alone in this, but I reckon that a lot of performance cars I drive lack proper feel. I blame the Nürburgring. Being able to claim that your daily driver holds a production car lap record somewhere in Germany is a good boast down the pub for the feeble minded, and the map of the place that Aston Martin embroidered on the center console of the N400 might make its owners feel superior, but it's all nonsense."
Top Gear's James May goes over why he thinks the world-famous 'Ring isn't as good as it seems for the development of sports cars. He claims that automakers' tunnel-vision of achieving the fastest Ring times and outright grip sacrifices the need for feedback and satisfying handling.
Top Gear's James May goes over why he thinks the world-famous 'Ring isn't as good as it seems for the development of sports cars. He claims that automakers' tunnel-vision of achieving the fastest Ring times and outright grip sacrifices the need for feedback and satisfying handling.