An honest inquiry
10-11-2013, 02:25 PM
#102
Le Mans Master
Ferrarichat had a thread discussing build quality issues on the Enzo back its heyday. I specifically remember a legit post claiming the panel gaps on a hand built car of its level actually added character to the car and was welcomed. Interesting bias. I'm not saying misaligned panels are acceptable in today's world but it is interesting seeing the types of blinders put on depending what brand it is at fault.
10-11-2013, 02:32 PM
#104
Safety Car
10-11-2013, 02:34 PM
#105
Safety Car
Dan brings it on himself. Anytime you have a preface a thread title.. or put a disclaimer up saying you are not asking for trouble. You already know you are subconsciously asking for trouble. Its the equivalent of saying, "I hope this doesnt bother you.. but:" What I dont understand is that Dan has owned cars that costs 4-6x what C7 stickers for.. so its not like he cant afford one. Even worse he currently owns a beautiful 427 Vert that has less miles on it than some guys have put on their C7, just from driving it home from the dealer. I personally put 1300 miles on my C6 when I drove it home from the dealer.. which is STILL 100 more miles than Dan has put on his 427. So Instead of spending his time creating more of these im-not-trolling-but-i-am-trolling threads.. why not spend time enjoying the beautiful vehicles he has owned?
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
Last edited by Daekwan06; 10-11-2013 at 02:49 PM.
10-11-2013, 02:36 PM
#106
Scraping the splitter.
S.
10-11-2013, 02:50 PM
#108
Dan brings it on himself. Anytime you have a preface a thread title.. or put a disclaimer up saying you are not asking for trouble. You already know you are subconsciously asking for trouble. Its the equivalent of saying, "I hope this doesnt bother you.. but:" What I dont understand is that Dan has owned cars that costs 4-6x what C7 stickers for.. so its not like he cant afford one. Even worse he currently owns a beautiful 427 Vert that has less miles on it than some guys have put on their C7, just from driving it home from the dealer. I personally put 1300 miles on my C6 when I drove it home from the dealer.. which is STILL more miles than Dan has on 427. So Instead of spending his time creating more of these im-not-trolling-but-i-am-trolling threads.. why not spend time enjoying the vehicles he has owned?
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
10-11-2013, 03:15 PM
#110
Dan brings it on himself. Anytime you have a preface a thread title.. or put a disclaimer up saying you are not asking for trouble. You already know you are subconsciously asking for trouble. Its the equivalent of saying, "I hope this doesnt bother you.. but:" What I dont understand is that Dan has owned cars that costs 4-6x what C7 stickers for.. so its not like he cant afford one. Even worse he currently owns a beautiful 427 Vert that has less miles on it than some guys have put on their C7, just from driving it home from the dealer. I personally put 1300 miles on my C6 when I drove it home from the dealer.. which is STILL 100 more miles than Dan has put on his 427. So Instead of spending his time creating more of these im-not-trolling-but-i-am-trolling threads.. why not spend time enjoying the beautiful vehicles he has owned?
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
Its been said a 1000x before on this forum: People do not have a problem with a guy not liking the C7. Everybody has a right to their opinion. People have a problem with a guy who comes to the C7 forum every day to tell us how much he doesnt like it or how much he thinks is wrong with it. Do I even need mention none of these C7-naysayers, even own a C7? They havent driven it, havent sat in it and some still have not even seen it in person yet. So what makes a person spend an entire year complaining about something they dont own. And clearly have no intention of owning.
Why do we accept this obvious trolling? Just ignore it and let it fall off the bottom of the forums .....
10-11-2013, 03:23 PM
#111
Race Director
What the poster is saying. For the price of this car, you should not have to accept inferior
workmanship. gm true and true buyers just seem to accept this build quality, others
go there is something better out there
workmanship. gm true and true buyers just seem to accept this build quality, others
go there is something better out there
10-11-2013, 03:26 PM
#112
Safety Car
Thread Starter
10-11-2013, 03:28 PM
#113
Team Owner
If everything I'm reading is true, I'm a little disappointed. That verdict is still out for me. I don't believe everything I read. There have been a couple of issues brought out regarding paint that bother me. There have also been some things I've read that I simply don't believe.
I understand a lot of what has been going on. This is a new model with new workers on a new line with new equipment. This is a new design with new parts and new suppliers. I expect their to be issues. What they are, how severe and how they are handled will make a difference in the final verdict.
I have been in manufacturing for my entire career. Every supplier that I have ever worked with has introduced problems in to my process. The measure of a good supplier is how they react and what the ultimate consequences are of those problems. I've not yet encountered a perfect design and no matter how much validation is done, something will be compromised, something will be overlooked or missed all together. Again, how that is dealt with makes a difference.
In a past life for me we had a saying, if we wanted to prove out a design, release it to production and if we wanted to prove out a product, release it to the public. What we meant was that no matter how well you think you have covered everything, you are wrong. Folks will always find a way to do things with your process or product that you never ever intended. These actions have consequences for sure.
One of the real tests for me will be when I pick up my car. I've owned three previous Corvettes, each better than the last and each great cars in and amidst years which had problems (1984, 1997 and 2005.) My cars didn't have them.
If what we are seeing is symptomatic of a real problem with the product or process, it will be quite prevalent and quite consistent. If what we are seeing is the "human" factor where one human did something that wasn't consistent with the plan or the process, it will be discovered and corrected. Either will be dealt with, one will have much greater consequences.
In all of this, I really have not seen enough even here on the forum to reach a state of alarm or really even concern.
I understand a lot of what has been going on. This is a new model with new workers on a new line with new equipment. This is a new design with new parts and new suppliers. I expect their to be issues. What they are, how severe and how they are handled will make a difference in the final verdict.
I have been in manufacturing for my entire career. Every supplier that I have ever worked with has introduced problems in to my process. The measure of a good supplier is how they react and what the ultimate consequences are of those problems. I've not yet encountered a perfect design and no matter how much validation is done, something will be compromised, something will be overlooked or missed all together. Again, how that is dealt with makes a difference.
In a past life for me we had a saying, if we wanted to prove out a design, release it to production and if we wanted to prove out a product, release it to the public. What we meant was that no matter how well you think you have covered everything, you are wrong. Folks will always find a way to do things with your process or product that you never ever intended. These actions have consequences for sure.
One of the real tests for me will be when I pick up my car. I've owned three previous Corvettes, each better than the last and each great cars in and amidst years which had problems (1984, 1997 and 2005.) My cars didn't have them.
If what we are seeing is symptomatic of a real problem with the product or process, it will be quite prevalent and quite consistent. If what we are seeing is the "human" factor where one human did something that wasn't consistent with the plan or the process, it will be discovered and corrected. Either will be dealt with, one will have much greater consequences.
In all of this, I really have not seen enough even here on the forum to reach a state of alarm or really even concern.
10-11-2013, 03:47 PM
#115
Le Mans Master
10-11-2013, 03:49 PM
#116
Race Director
In all seriousness, I think it is way to early to tell, one way or another. I have been concerned that issues would arise because of all the new tech in the car and because, frankly, I do not trust that quality has held up at the post-bailout GM and post-crisi suppliers, because it certainly did not at Ford. HOWEVER, given my concerns going into this, and based on what owners ARE reporting overall, I have to say that things are going MUCH better than I would have anticipated. As I see it, the GOOD is:
1. Interior fit and quality lives up to the hype with no major reported problems. I do not consider 1mm gap here and there to be important.
2. VVT and DOD are consistently reported as seamless. This was a big concern for me, based on prior GM track record with this technology.
3. Exterior assembly and panel gaps appear to be excellent, with no major reported issues. Quality of the paint appears to be markedly improved. Every car has orange peel somewhere if you look hard enough.
4. Vehicle dynamics appear to be as promised.
5. Dealers appear to be very responsive to issues.
Concern areas
1. The screens. There is only one report of dead pixels, but this is mass manufacturing and there have to be more. Caddy has been using the same system for a while, so it would be useful to know what the failure rates there have been. It will go for C7 and it went for Caddy. Fortunately, replacement is straightforward: swap in a new unit.
2. The diff - the no-fill issue has to be an anomaly, and is easily verified. Goes for all fluids anyway. The malfunctions are not. Hard to say if this is a controller issue (appears to be) or a mechanical issue. Either way, if it is there, it should show up quickly, so if you have not had it by 300 miles, you are probably fine, and that appears to be the case for nearly all vehicles reporting in here. And of course, if it's a bad set of boards or a firmware issue, then it is correctable. The only thing there is that it is a safety concern and GM needs to be on top of a recall if necessary.
3. The transport of the cars DOES appear to be problematic, and I think that's the major issue. There should be a way to get a $60,000 car to a dealer without it taking a beating along the way. Museum delivery?
Overall, concerning vehicle quality, I have always found my Vettes to be as good as my BMWs, and overall, the Vettes hold up better in all areas: interior, hardware, chassis and so on. I just sold an E90 with 65,000 miles and Sport package. The car has not aged well: radio display failing ($1,200), body structure noticeably loosening with squeaks etc., interior not holding up well. At least the window switches did not fail multiple times. And don;t even get me started on my buddy's 996 and 997 ownership experience - a freakin' financial disaster.
1. Interior fit and quality lives up to the hype with no major reported problems. I do not consider 1mm gap here and there to be important.
2. VVT and DOD are consistently reported as seamless. This was a big concern for me, based on prior GM track record with this technology.
3. Exterior assembly and panel gaps appear to be excellent, with no major reported issues. Quality of the paint appears to be markedly improved. Every car has orange peel somewhere if you look hard enough.
4. Vehicle dynamics appear to be as promised.
5. Dealers appear to be very responsive to issues.
Concern areas
1. The screens. There is only one report of dead pixels, but this is mass manufacturing and there have to be more. Caddy has been using the same system for a while, so it would be useful to know what the failure rates there have been. It will go for C7 and it went for Caddy. Fortunately, replacement is straightforward: swap in a new unit.
2. The diff - the no-fill issue has to be an anomaly, and is easily verified. Goes for all fluids anyway. The malfunctions are not. Hard to say if this is a controller issue (appears to be) or a mechanical issue. Either way, if it is there, it should show up quickly, so if you have not had it by 300 miles, you are probably fine, and that appears to be the case for nearly all vehicles reporting in here. And of course, if it's a bad set of boards or a firmware issue, then it is correctable. The only thing there is that it is a safety concern and GM needs to be on top of a recall if necessary.
3. The transport of the cars DOES appear to be problematic, and I think that's the major issue. There should be a way to get a $60,000 car to a dealer without it taking a beating along the way. Museum delivery?
Overall, concerning vehicle quality, I have always found my Vettes to be as good as my BMWs, and overall, the Vettes hold up better in all areas: interior, hardware, chassis and so on. I just sold an E90 with 65,000 miles and Sport package. The car has not aged well: radio display failing ($1,200), body structure noticeably loosening with squeaks etc., interior not holding up well. At least the window switches did not fail multiple times. And don;t even get me started on my buddy's 996 and 997 ownership experience - a freakin' financial disaster.
Last edited by TTRotary; 10-11-2013 at 03:52 PM.
10-11-2013, 03:54 PM
#117
10-11-2013, 03:57 PM
#118
Burning Brakes
Expectations were raised high for the C7. I work in the industry, and honestly I have found far way more fitment issues on a C6 than a C7, a 2012 Z06 to be more specific. You are coming to a place where people are too picky and often have people creating 2 or 3 thread about the same problem just because they do not have anything better to do.
Cars come with problems. My E46 M# clutch fragmented to pieces at 600 miles. My 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse dashboard broke in two pieces, etc, etc. I doubt that there are no failures in Acura; you just maybe dont go to the forums as much.
In short, GM's QC is OK and they are doing well. By the number of cars on the field versus the number of issues here, you are looking at 0.5% failures at most. That's not bad in my opinion considering what you are getting. People, for some reason, want Corvette price along with Lamborghini finish. It's not going to happen....
Just the 2 cents from someone in the industry...
Cars come with problems. My E46 M# clutch fragmented to pieces at 600 miles. My 2000 Mitsubishi Eclipse dashboard broke in two pieces, etc, etc. I doubt that there are no failures in Acura; you just maybe dont go to the forums as much.
In short, GM's QC is OK and they are doing well. By the number of cars on the field versus the number of issues here, you are looking at 0.5% failures at most. That's not bad in my opinion considering what you are getting. People, for some reason, want Corvette price along with Lamborghini finish. It's not going to happen....
Just the 2 cents from someone in the industry...
People, for some reason, want Corvette price along with Lamborghini finish. It's not going to happen....
Well said and to the point. At the end of the day, yeah, it's a $65k sports car. You want a Lambo with perfect paint, motor, wheels, tires etc, they start new at $339k. Good luck with that....It is a mass-produced car meant to be driven. Will it have some bugs here or there, of course!!
10-11-2013, 03:59 PM
#119
Safety Car
Thread Starter
If everything I'm reading is true, I'm a little disappointed. That verdict is still out for me. I don't believe everything I read. There have been a couple of issues brought out regarding paint that bother me. There have also been some things I've read that I simply don't believe.
I understand a lot of what has been going on. This is a new model with new workers on a new line with new equipment. This is a new design with new parts and new suppliers. I expect their to be issues. What they are, how severe and how they are handled will make a difference in the final verdict.
I understand a lot of what has been going on. This is a new model with new workers on a new line with new equipment. This is a new design with new parts and new suppliers. I expect their to be issues. What they are, how severe and how they are handled will make a difference in the final verdict.
As you stated paint is an issue all in itself but things like diffs. not being filled and parts missing should be embarrassing to a company like GM. Also I have seen more and more quirky electronics complaints being mentioned, these are major reasons for concern. And keep in mind what we are reading here is probably 1/20th of what really goes on. We can also talk about fitment and even the way the cars are coming off the carriers all scratched and filthy.
I sincerely hope these problems start to vanish quickly, my point is that IMO 95% of them shouldn't exist to begin with.
10-11-2013, 04:23 PM
#120
Burning Brakes
Paul thanks for jumping in. I agree with you in that some of the claims that have been made here are preposterous but those really aren't the reason I asked for peoples opinions.
As you stated paint is an issue all in itself but things like diffs. not being filled and parts missing should be embarrassing to a company like GM. Also I have seen more and more quirky electronics complaints being mentioned, these are major reasons for concern. And keep in mind what we are reading here is probably 1/20th of what really goes on. We can also talk about fitment and even the way the cars are coming off the carriers all scratched and filthy.
I sincerely hope these problems start to vanish quickly, my point is that IMO 95% of them shouldn't exist to begin with.
As you stated paint is an issue all in itself but things like diffs. not being filled and parts missing should be embarrassing to a company like GM. Also I have seen more and more quirky electronics complaints being mentioned, these are major reasons for concern. And keep in mind what we are reading here is probably 1/20th of what really goes on. We can also talk about fitment and even the way the cars are coming off the carriers all scratched and filthy.
I sincerely hope these problems start to vanish quickly, my point is that IMO 95% of them shouldn't exist to begin with.
I agree with Talon that I don't quite believe all that I read, yet, pics are irrefutable, and some of the confirmed true stories just don't get a "pass", ie the "it's new" train.
More like, it's lack of pride, of some, in their jobs to let these things slip. And a final QC surely would have caught some of these?
I did not buy the early C6s, and had heard of their initial problems, but this time I am seeing/hearing first-hand things that make me go "WTF?"
And I am totally a Corvette guy, and will eventually buy a C7 in a few years (if I fit..lol...6"3, 280)
My hope is GM and the Chevy Customer Service forum reps are diligently noting these things and quickly making a course correction especially on the final QC end.
