laborsmith

I am not sure "illegal" is the correct term. That would imply there is a statute that prohibits obtaining a vehicle domestically for the purpose of reselling in an overseas market. I think the issue as reported is related to franchise rules contained in whatever contracts GM has with its individual dealers.

Laborsmith

jschindler

Reading this thread fairly thoroughly, it appears to me that it's not really a GM list, but a list derived from Government reports. In one post, it is stated that GM Customer Service told him it's not a GM list and there is nothing they can do about it.

If in fact it is simply a GM policy then I would think it could legally be challenged in that the OP became the owner of the vehicles he bought and he can do whatever the hell he wants with them. What if GM decided to start a list of all customers who have had their car worked on by a "tuner" shop that likely voided their warranty and decides to implement a policy that GM dealers are no longer allowed to sell him a car without the risk of losing their franchise?

Where does it end that the owner of a car becomes blacklisted from ever buying from the manufacturer again. How about if the black box reports to GM that the owner took the car out and drove it 100mph on a public road so they are no longer allowed to buy another car from GM?????

TOVetteFan

Yes, it does, if you didn't own it for 6 months before selling it...

TOVetteFan

GM dealers, as part of their franchise agreement, agree not to sell new vehicles for resale, or export. It is not illegal, in terms of going to jail, but it does violate franchise agreements, and as such makes dealers liable for penalties from GM. As such, they will not sell to anyone that is named on the list, just to avoid any such repercussions.

As well, it very clearly states on most of the required documentation on a new car purchase that any and all incentives that might be available to the purchaser require the vehicle to be maintained in the name of the purchaser for at least 6 months, and if this is not adhered to, the dealer can be charged back any such incentives, and have their allotment cut.

If you were a dealer, and someone's name came up on the list of potential or past exports that is maintained by GM, would you take a chance? I wouldn't...

John Harry

Car and Driver, April 2014 issue, page 24, has an article on this very subject. It says that the buyer's agreement contains a clause saying the purchased vehicle will not be exported. Exporting it thus constitutes fraud. One case alleges that a company exported over 2000 vehicles in 2012, using "straw buyers".

jschindler

I understand, I just don't embrace the legality of it. We are not talking about a commercial reseller here, we are talking about an owner who bought cars and used them for his personal use then sold them as an individual.

jschindler

In this case, the OP bought them used and therefore signed no such agreement.

HummelS

I was just going to make that point - if you ship a US car across an international border, the warranty is worthless.

Who in the hell would buy a "new" car without a warranty?

jschindler

Someone who has enough money to not care. Think about it, what is the most a warranty usually pays out on a new car these days? I've owned an awful lot,of cars and I'd guess the most that any has cost the manufacturer to pay out warranty claims is a couple of thousand dollars. Folks on the forum void their warranties with engine mods all the time.

hawkgfr

Funny how GM gets all choked up about what turns out to be nothing but not real issues say for instance people getting killed or injured because of other poor decisions made by GM...I mean really lets don't sell a US soldier a car because he took his own US cars with him over seas.

Big Lebowski

Sorry, that doesn't fly. Two wrongs don't make a right...or justify the other. Just as GM is accountable (and will likely pay dearly) the OP is too. His service to our country does not exempt him from his moral and legal responsibilities.

You make it sound like GM singled this man out. They didn't. He was on a list due to his past exporting. I'm not on the list, and I doubt you are...because we didn't export a vehicle to another country.

hawkgfr

No they didn't "single" him out but then he didn't do anything wrong either did he...except be on the equivalent of a no fly list. and we know how good those are.


gm surely is not in the moral business...

Big Lebowski

I may agree with your last statement, and that GM and any company should be held accountable for their actions.

But I also believe that no one is above the law. Neither is the OP. To answer your question, he DID do something wrong. Is what he did a moral "gray area" in the legal sense of the world? Perhaps. But it was illegal.

Here is a recent article in the NY times if you insist on not believing me. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02/...ype=blogs&_r=0

GM is not the TSA singling out foreigners, they are a business and as a business they can chose who they do business with. And THAT is not illegal.

hawkgfr

Meh....pretend it's Obama where everything is ok...



My late brother shipped two cars on different tours over there while he was in service. I need to dig him up and tell him he is a criminal...


Oh and the criminal OP is getting his vette after all.



Everything has a gray area.

82CFI

I read all 9 pages of this thread and it sure was interesting and informative. Having done so, I believe the OP's predicament is (and probably for others on the list too) not all that complicated to explain. Certain high volume dealers won't sell to the OP because GM told them not to and they comply because there's quite a bit at stake for them. GM admits that they use "someone" else's list to determine if a potential buyer is an exporter. Why do they use someone's else's list? Because it's available and they can ... call this the due diligence that major corporations engage in to stem potential liability. What potential liability? Maybe, from a class action suit filed by foreign GM dealers in a foreign court system resulting in a decision that goes against GM with the accompanying millions in awards. GM told the OP that they cannot remove him from the list and that is not an unreasonable expectation because, after-all, it is someone else's list that GM has no control over.

Finally, do I believe that the OP is an exporter? Maybe or maybe not ... technically he might be classified as an exporter because he didn't return the Hummer to the US ... this is by his own admission. He is a proud owner of a new C7 so getting off that "someone else's" list might be a moot point for him. To do so, would require getting GM to tell him who's list it is so that he can petition that entity to remove him ... I doubt GM will tell him whose list they're using.

The bottom line is that GM and McMulkin were walking away from a $65K+ sale to protect assets worth billions (millions for the dealer). A decision that for a heavy majority would be a "no-brainer."

badwhitecorvette

In my case I have done nothing illegal. I have not violated any GM or any other company policy. I never crossed any gray area at all. The cars were out of warranty and over 5 years old.

There is a company the collects and mines the 17 million U.S. bills of ladings each year and sells the data to anyone that wants it.

It's simple if you ship a car in or out of this country you are on the list period. It is that easy to be put on the "list".

nvusgt

What I don't understand is how some people can support this list in this particular situation.

Both cars were used, no warranty, and no documents were signed that included his agreement to keep said vehicle for 6 months like new cars.

I get the new car export, I get GM wanting to black list legit exporters. But after going over this situation how are some of you still so eager to keep guys like the OP and perhaps countless others on the same list? The export "rule" is to avoid selling to individuals/businesses so they can turn around and make a profit, or a situation like 82CFI stated.

I asked this question earlier, but didn't seem to get a response, so I'll try again. This list that anyone can be put on because they took a vehicle out of country. What happens when someone wants to take their new C7/Z to the 'Ring for the amazing experience it has to offer. They come back with said C7 but since they took their toy out of the country is it right for them to be put on this very list and labeled along with being black listed as an exporter?

What sense does that make?

Big Lebowski

I was under the impressions they were new/newer cars. If they were 5 years old and out of warranty, that was no different than you shipping furniture over seas. Yeah, if I was in your shoes, I'd be frustrated too.

jschindler

Okay, I have really tried to sort through this, and I'm more confused than before. PLEASE explain in simple terms what the OP did wrong. I'm honestly not seeing that he did anything wrong. Explain "the list" to me. I asked that in a recent post and was told it's not illegal to export a car, simply a GM "rule". But he had no obligation to GM as he did not buy the car from GM (franchised dealer) and he is not a commercial exporter, simply someone who took their own personal car overseas, then decided to sell it to save the cost of bringing it back to the U.S. And for that he is not allowed to buy a new car from GM ever again. I'd like for someone to point to the facts if I did not correctly come to that conclusion.

jschindler

Hmmmm, GM employees have taken cars to the ring….are they not allowed to buy GM cars now