Mid-Length Headers
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,961
Likes: 2,643
From: Texas Hill Country
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 5,529
Likes: 1,943
From: Austin Texas
A) long tube heders sound better
B) long tube headers are not showing much gains (HP or TQ)
From this one would guess that short tube headers would neither sound much better nor make much HP or TQ.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,231
Likes: 958
From: Missouri
Do a search on the forum. You will find that the mid length headers are producing about 15 - 20 HP at the rear wheel and slightly higher TQ numbers. You are giving up about 10 HP over the LT headers but you do not need to do a tune and possibly void some of your warranty. Also, the mid-length will greatly reduce the chance of getting a CEL light by running stock if you order them with the two CATS and run the factory two CATS that are currently on your car.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,961
Likes: 2,643
From: Texas Hill Country
I think the bottom line is that on these cars bolt ons don't really do anything at all.
Intakes and headers and exhausts are not going to get you anything until you modify the internals (porting, cams, stroker, etc).
The external stuff is well optimized for the stock engine. I think it's a big reason we aren't seeing a ton of options out there. Of course the ones that are claim large gains......of course. I pulled my intake off yesterday and it has to be the most free flowing intake of any factory car I've had so far.
The biggest thing you can do on this car without getting into the motor is reducing under hood temps and reducing intake air charge temps. The fans blow right onto the intake and the car runs pretty hot (by design). That's where I would look first.
Intakes and headers and exhausts are not going to get you anything until you modify the internals (porting, cams, stroker, etc).
The external stuff is well optimized for the stock engine. I think it's a big reason we aren't seeing a ton of options out there. Of course the ones that are claim large gains......of course. I pulled my intake off yesterday and it has to be the most free flowing intake of any factory car I've had so far.
The biggest thing you can do on this car without getting into the motor is reducing under hood temps and reducing intake air charge temps. The fans blow right onto the intake and the car runs pretty hot (by design). That's where I would look first.
Banned Scam/Spammer
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,083
Likes: 3,869
From: Bonita Springs FL
I think the bottom line is that on these cars bolt ons don't really do anything at all.
Intakes and headers and exhausts are not going to get you anything until you modify the internals (porting, cams, stroker, etc).
The external stuff is well optimized for the stock engine. I think it's a big reason we aren't seeing a ton of options out there. Of course the ones that are claim large gains......of course. I pulled my intake off yesterday and it has to be the most free flowing intake of any factory car I've had so far.
The biggest thing you can do on this car without getting into the motor is reducing under hood temps and reducing intake air charge temps. The fans blow right onto the intake and the car runs pretty hot (by design). That's where I would look first.
Intakes and headers and exhausts are not going to get you anything until you modify the internals (porting, cams, stroker, etc).
The external stuff is well optimized for the stock engine. I think it's a big reason we aren't seeing a ton of options out there. Of course the ones that are claim large gains......of course. I pulled my intake off yesterday and it has to be the most free flowing intake of any factory car I've had so far.
The biggest thing you can do on this car without getting into the motor is reducing under hood temps and reducing intake air charge temps. The fans blow right onto the intake and the car runs pretty hot (by design). That's where I would look first.
Last edited by punky; Apr 21, 2014 at 12:38 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,961
Likes: 2,643
From: Texas Hill Country
Welcome to the LTx world (again)....sounds like someone is living in the past.....
BTW, here is one of my previous cars. It had longtubes:
And here it is with the stock engine, longtubes, and a 100 shot:
2001 Z06 vs TT GTO
How about a ride in my race car?
Or maybe you want to try my shifter kart?
Teach me something, drmustang, if I have so much to learn.....from you, troll extraordinaire.
Last edited by Higgs Boson; Apr 21, 2014 at 01:07 PM.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 238
From: Macomb MI
Over the in the Tech section, Vengeance Racing (forum vendor) has posted up two of their "VR500" builds which are essentially ARH catted mids and a Halltech CAI or Green filter. Gains have been +30 HP/TQ or more with no tune.
No affiliation on my part. Just some info to consider from what appears to be a well-sorted kit from a well-respected forum vendor. At least I'm considering it for mine...
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-t...ideo-dyno.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-t...ideo-dyno.html
No affiliation on my part. Just some info to consider from what appears to be a well-sorted kit from a well-respected forum vendor. At least I'm considering it for mine...
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-t...ideo-dyno.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-t...ideo-dyno.html
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Race Director
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,961
Likes: 2,643
From: Texas Hill Country
It's like a car company saying, "We make the best, fastest, most reliable, longest lasting car in the world!"
Do you believe them and buy only their car because their ad said so? I guess that's all it takes for some people.....
When you aren't a newbie you know what can be done with dynos, HP figures, etc. It has also been shown on this very website that an intake gains nothing, headers gain nothing, and that power gains come from the recalibration of the ECM...... people have installed the 30HP intakes and the 30HP headers and did not see gains.....I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
Do you believe them and buy only their car because their ad said so? I guess that's all it takes for some people.....
When you aren't a newbie you know what can be done with dynos, HP figures, etc. It has also been shown on this very website that an intake gains nothing, headers gain nothing, and that power gains come from the recalibration of the ECM...... people have installed the 30HP intakes and the 30HP headers and did not see gains.....I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 9
From: Marietta Ga
When you aren't a newbie you know what can be done with dynos, HP figures, etc. It has also been shown on this very website that an intake gains nothing, headers gain nothing, and that power gains come from the recalibration of the ECM...... people have installed the 30HP intakes and the 30HP headers and did not see gains.....I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 238
From: Macomb MI
Originally Posted by Higgs Boson
I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
This is the key right here. Bolting anything onto a car without tuning the ECM will result in almost no gains. Only way to get more power out of anything is to simply tune the ECM. Back in the day even if you bolted a SC or Turbo kit you still had to install a chip or piggy back that tuned for you. A more plug and play but now a days when you install any part on to your engine in order to actually take advantage of it is to retune the car.
Where I struggle is discounting the dyno charts for both builds showing nearly the same outcome. Sure, data can be manipulated, etc. to show a desired result especially if one assumes bias or an agenda is involved. I get that. But should any quantitative data posted by a well-respected vendor be completely dismissed or assumed to be so biased as to be nearly useless?
I don't have anything resembling the experience and expertise of many folks here, and I'm really not trying to stir the pot. However at some point, and maybe it's naive on my part, I need to "accept" some of this data to be valid once I've considered its source. There have been repeatable results, and by more than one vendor who is respected.
My question is whether it's possible that the LT1 may be more 'enthusiastic' about mids (with no tune) than the LSx now that there is some population of data? And truly no pot-stirring intended; honest question.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,255
Likes: 9
From: Marietta Ga
I get the skepticism. I tend to fall more in the 'prove it to me' category as well.
Where I struggle is discounting the dyno charts for both builds showing nearly the same outcome. Sure, data can be manipulated, etc. to show a desired result especially if one assumes bias or an agenda is involved. I get that. But should any quantitative data posted by a well-respected vendor be completely dismissed or assumed to be so biased as to be nearly useless?
I don't have anything resembling the experience and expertise of many folks here, and I'm really not trying to stir the pot. However at some point, and maybe it's naive on my part, I need to "accept" some of this data to be valid once I've considered its source. There have been repeatable results, and by more than one vendor who is respected.
My question is whether it's possible that the LT1 may be more 'enthusiastic' about mids (with no tune) than the LSx now that there is some population of data? And truly no pot-stirring intended; honest question.
Where I struggle is discounting the dyno charts for both builds showing nearly the same outcome. Sure, data can be manipulated, etc. to show a desired result especially if one assumes bias or an agenda is involved. I get that. But should any quantitative data posted by a well-respected vendor be completely dismissed or assumed to be so biased as to be nearly useless?
I don't have anything resembling the experience and expertise of many folks here, and I'm really not trying to stir the pot. However at some point, and maybe it's naive on my part, I need to "accept" some of this data to be valid once I've considered its source. There have been repeatable results, and by more than one vendor who is respected.
My question is whether it's possible that the LT1 may be more 'enthusiastic' about mids (with no tune) than the LSx now that there is some population of data? And truly no pot-stirring intended; honest question.
Banned Scam/Spammer
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,083
Likes: 3,869
From: Bonita Springs FL
It's like a car company saying, "We make the best, fastest, most reliable, longest lasting car in the world!"
Do you believe them and buy only their car because their ad said so? I guess that's all it takes for some people.....
When you aren't a newbie you know what can be done with dynos, HP figures, etc. It has also been shown on this very website that an intake gains nothing, headers gain nothing, and that power gains come from the recalibration of the ECM...... people have installed the 30HP intakes and the 30HP headers and did not see gains.....I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
Do you believe them and buy only their car because their ad said so? I guess that's all it takes for some people.....
When you aren't a newbie you know what can be done with dynos, HP figures, etc. It has also been shown on this very website that an intake gains nothing, headers gain nothing, and that power gains come from the recalibration of the ECM...... people have installed the 30HP intakes and the 30HP headers and did not see gains.....I trust the people who spend the money, not the ones who sell the products (sorry to the vendors out there, but the responsibility of not spending my money stupidly is on me and it takes a lot more than internet claims).
Race Director
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,961
Likes: 2,643
From: Texas Hill Country
What ever you say Pal. Tell the guys at ARH, Kooks, Texas Speed, etc. that their LT Headers do absolutely nothing and that they are a total waste of money. Simply amazing nonsense. You really need to do some research or just stop assassinating the integrity of the sponsoring vendors here!
Don't you find it even MILDLY interesting that the advertisements started stating "xxx gains WITH NO TUNE!!!" right at the same time manufacturers started specifically calling out tunes as potentially invalidating a warranty claim? Suddenly we don't need a tune to make the parts work right? Right......
Have some more respect for yourself. Think for yourself and trust your own mind.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 222
From: Colorado Springs, CO/Augusta,GA Colorado
There have been a lot of postings of dynos that show gains with mid and long headers...Wait let me rephrase that. There has been lots of postings of dynos by different shops of installs that they have completed that show gains with mid and long tube headers. I do think that without tuning, it is mostly likely not very much of a gain.
Drifting
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 238
From: Macomb MI
I have paraphrased below the VR installs linked in my previous post and the corresponding dynos.
For my benefit in understanding how to be a better critic and consumer of this sort of data, what would be the explanation for the results before and after and the gains published? For the sake of argument, let's assume what was done as far as the parts installed was accurate.
ARH mids + Green filter, no tune, A6 Z51:
ARH mids + Halltech CKN CAI, no tune, Z51:
For my benefit in understanding how to be a better critic and consumer of this sort of data, what would be the explanation for the results before and after and the gains published? For the sake of argument, let's assume what was done as far as the parts installed was accurate.
ARH mids + Green filter, no tune, A6 Z51:
ARH mids + Halltech CKN CAI, no tune, Z51: