Hopper12

I've noticed periodic threads on orange peel, and thought I would try to help a bit (this forum has been a really good source of info for me, so I want to help when I can too) as it seems that a number of C7 owners are mildly to strongly upset about the amount of orange peel on their new cars. Sorry for the long post, but this isn't a simple subject.

A little background on me so you know the level of experience I have. I may be new to Corvette's, but I've been in the car hobby for over 35 years; owned +/- 130 cars; restored and painted about 85 of them. For about 5-6 years I was a regular participant in the International Show Car Association, and won several awards for best paint. Please don't take this as bragging - we all have lots of talents; body/paint just came naturally to me for some reason. I used either a 2 or 3 stage process (with 3 stage, the 1st stage is a catalyzed sealer), depending on the situation.

What is orange peel? In it's most simple terms, it happens when: the body is not properly prepared; and/or one or more of the stages of material (sealer, color, clear) is not sprayed in a manner that allows the proper amount of time to flow before beginning to harden; and/or the wrong temp range reducer is used; and/or the wrong air pressure is used; and/or the equipment is contaminated/dirty; and/or the optimal blend of reducer and catalyst is not used; and/or inadequate ventilation (for example, if you're using a high pressure gun with generally more airborne overspray and don't have proper ventilation, the overspray floating around the environment can settle on the curing paint as you're shooting other parts of the car); etc.

What makes a great paint job? Lots of things coming together at the same time. First is proper preparation - starting with a great foundation. Then: the right equipment and air pressure, a good environment with proper ventilation, the right reducer for the temp/humidity, great lighting (above, side, and from the ground so the shooter can make adjustments as needed - you can actually correct orange peel as you go if you have good lighting and see it), the right temp/humidity, etc. It's everything mentioned above coming together at the same time/place. Having no orange peel is a very fine line between perfection and runs/sags. Also note that it's generally easier to have little or no orange peel on a horizontal surface because you can lay the material down heavier without as much concern about runs/sags. Look your vette over - usually the horizontal panels are better than you will find in places like just underneath some of the compound curves. Part of this is due to the fact that our cars are shot by machines that don't do as good a job of adjusting to the visual ques that a good shooter will because a good shooter is watching for signs of trouble and adjusts accordingly on the fly. A machine can't do that.

Will a good painter always have orange peel free paint without a lot of manual work? No way, at least not if you're looking for a show quality paint job. On roughly half the cars I've painted, I needed to color sand and buff at least a couple of panels to get it the way I wanted. And orange peel has a way of compounding when multi-stage processes are used. If you get orange peel in the first stage, you can bet it will continue into the next stage(s).

Is orange peel related to the color of the paint? Generally, no. That said, I have seen some tendencies that I can't explain. I've painted several different colors with no issues due to color. BUT, here's an example I can't explain without investigation: when I was purchasing a 2010 CTS-V, my first color choice was raven black. Every '10 raven black CTS-V I looked at was loaded with orange peel - they were all awful. It didn't matter what dealer or city I was in when I looked at them, they were all terrible. I chose thunder gray metallic because they all seemed to be a much better paint job. And later that year when the black diamond paint color was introduced on the CTS-V the paint jobs were much, much better than the raven black. Go figure.

Is orange peel related to metallic paints? Generally, no (or it shouldn't be). Metallics require a few different techniques, but if you adjust for them they are no problem.

On C7s, is orange peel related to surface preparation? I've seen this asked a couple of times in orange peel threads. In my opinion, this is not an issue. I've looked my '15 Z51 coupe over very closely and only found a couple of very minor flaws that looked like they were inherent in the body panel, and they were both just below the rear hatch window - and very minor. I think the C7 panel prep is amazing, especially given the many compound curves and such.

On average, are the C7 paint jobs the quality we should expect? Based on what I've seen so far, I think the answer is a qualified yes. Almost all manufacturer paint jobs that are shot by machine will have some level of orange peel somewhere on the car. On super expensive cars, they are color sanded and buffed to near perfection. Our vettes cost us a lot of money by many standards. But their cost does not cross the line into the type of territory that allows for hours of qualified manual labor to take the entire vehicle to show quality paint. We're paying for a combination of best in class styling, performance, handling, great technology, etc. And hopefully quality and decent service. And this should include the reasonable expectation of a very good paint job.

Are there some poor C7 paint jobs? I haven't seen one, but I'm certain they exist. And if I ordered a C7 and it came in like all the '10 raven black CTS-Vs I saw, I would have refused it until it was made right.

Am I satisfied with my own C7 factory paint job? Mine is DSOM with CF mirrors, spoiler, badges, etc. The horizontal panels are very good; generally the vertical panels are very good; and there is a level or orange peel low on a few panels such as under the lower curve on the driver's side door. So while I have some level of orange peel, I understand it and it doesn't upset me. If it ever bothered me enough, I'd cut the areas down a bit with some 2000 and buff them out.

What would I do if I had some really bad orange peel on a C7 that I ordered? Lot's of options from refusing the car to asking Chevrolet/the dealer to color sand and buff it out (or allow a good shop to do it if they couldn't). Unless the orange peel was really, really bad, I would not be concerned about the longevity of going the color sand/buff route, as the quality of the paint products used today is outstanding and very durable.

I hope this helps someone. The vast majority of the forum members are really helpful, and I appreciate all the help that has been given to me as I decided to become a member of the vette family.

nmvettec7

Fantastic post, extremely informative and professional.

Thanks for posting this information as it provides a great explaination on orange peel and the process of painting automobiles.

Thanks again, job well done. I am sure others will agree.

BIC

Dunga

Great read! Thanks a lot. I will echo what you said regarding other manufacturers. My girlfriend has been looking at trading up her SUV. We've been looking at Jeeps, Audis, BMWs and Mercs. They all have OP. Even looking around the showroom, you seen 120k cars that have bad OP. It's all over the web and I can link specific cars here. Overall, I am happy with my Torch Red C7. It's certainly not perfect, and there is room for improvement, but like the OP said, it's probably hard with machine spray paint.

The only cars I've seen lately, that had perfect pain with no OP whatsoever, were lamborghini's in the Vegas showroom. We were looking at the Audis there, and the lambo was next door so we took a look. Real nice paint, and stunning cars. Out of my pricerange at this point but that's another story :-)

Glen e

Nobody cares about perfect, but I notice that most people that post that OP is not a problem on the C7 haven't really looked at that many cars. Go to somewhere like a forum vendor and walk the inventory and take a look at the cars. The C7 is atrocious compared to other cars.



Something is amiss at BG and the capital investment to fix it is beyond the budgets.....

Splitter

My '14 Camaro has peel ALL OVER the hood, roof, and trunk. The side panels are better (like the poster said, horizontal surfaces are generally better).

But I honestly don't care. I just load the car up with sealant so that it looks like a mirror shining, to hide the peel.

It is what it is.

Thank you for your time and effort to post this.

grandpawmoses

After reading forum posts about orange peel & fit and finish, I got so **** about it that I wouldn't order a Vette. I had to examine it in person first.

ratman6161

Great information, thanks. But...this is the same argument that was going on in the summer of 2000 when I was ordering my 2001 C5. Dunga mentioned the perfect paint on a Lambo....and if we were buying hand built cars that cost that much, we would probably have perfect paint too. I guess the bottom line is that these are still mass produced cars. So it probably isn't going to change. That said maybe I have just gotten lucky but I don't see anything like the pictures I see posted here on either my C5 (now traded in) or my '14 LRG C7. On the other hand the pictures seem to be close ups taken in just the right lite to show it off. So I'll choose to keep my magnifying glass at home and just drive the car.

beepster

Thanks for a very informative post...great read!

I am one of those who find the general paint quality on the C7 atrocious. I would advise anyone considering a purchase to personally inspect the vehicle prior to committing to a purchase. Buying a car sight unseen is unfortunately (whether thru a forum dealer, museum delivery, etc) quite common. I will never make that mistake again.

I fully understand everything said in your post and agree that the OP does exist on most production vehicles...just a question of degree. I still maintain it is reasonable for us to expect a paint job at least comparable to a KIA or Hyundai when spending $70M+...

1SG_Ret

I some cases ignorance is bliss. In many cases unless someone points out flaws, most owners will never notice them. All they see is a shinny new C7 that is a joy to drive.

Keeping perspective on those things that are really important makes for a happier life.

Roadrogue

Well said and true.

Hopper12

First off, thanks very much for the nice comments. I like forums like this where we can help one another, and look forward to meeting some of you down the road.

The pics posted showing the orange peel in the jams and on the panels are atrocious. In my experience the cause of OP that bad is narrowed down to a couple of items (or combinations): wrong temp reducer for warmer than expected temps; wrong air pressure; one of the stages of material mixed 'too hot'. Bottom line is that the material in those pics never had a chance to flow into a smooth surface prior to beginning to cure - - and IMO should never have left BG in that condition. Those pics looked like the raven black '10 CTS-Vs that I referenced.

I'm a pretty logical person when it comes to fixing things like this and getting consistently acceptable results - whether paint or other items. Here is what I would do: Set measurable standards of paint quality with regard to orange peel (this is easily done with the use of spectrophotometers and/or haze meters, in addition to visual inspections) for each color of paint. Choose measuring points on the cars for consistency in areas that can be prone to problems. Any car that fails is sent to an area for color sanding/buffing or other needed remedies before the car is allowed to pass final. Charge the costs back to the department that is responsible for the paint quality - hit their P&L or GL, AND also make it part of their monthly/quarterly/annual personal and department reviews, bonuses, etc. (I know, it's a union environment. I've managed in union environments and it's sometimes 'interesting'. But I think the union would support quality standards that can be consistently measured and agreed to).

But, based on what I've seen, the pics posted are the exception rather than the rule - but it could be more widespread than what I've seen. Before I purchased my car, I visited dealers in FL, WA, UT, NY, CA, and SC (I travel a lot for my work). I never saw anything like the posted pics, but there have to be more like that out there. I took a chance and purchased mine sight unseen from Kerbeck's (great transaction, btw) because they had what I wanted in stock and I didn't want to wait. But I asked Amoni to walk the car, visually inspect if for orange peel, and shoot me some pics - which he did in a few minutes time. After looking at the pics and talking with Amoni I had a level of trust and did the deal. If I had a car arrive with the panel in the pic, I would have been on the phone with the dealer and Chevrolet in a heartbeat (dang, that's kind of funny if you get it. ).

volvos80

Orange Peel - this write-up comes from a paint manufacturer in Germany and describes what it is and what can be done to fix it:

OP known as poor flow, poor leveling, pebbling
Description - Uneven surface formation - much like that of the skin of an orange -
which results from poor coalescence of atomized paint droplets.
Paint droplets dry before they can flow out and level smoothly
together.
Origin and Potential Causes:
• Improper gun adjustment and techniques. Too little air pressure,
wide fan patterns or spraying at excessive gun distances causes
droplets to become too dry during their travel time to the work
surface and they remain as formed by gun nozzle.
• Extreme shop temperature. When air temperature is too high,
droplets lose more solvent and dry out before they can flow and
level properly.
• Improper dry. Gun fanning before paint droplets have a chance to
flow together will cause orange peel.
• Improper flash or recoat time between coats. If first coats of
enamel are allowed to become too dry, solvent in the paint
droplets of following coats will be absorbed into the first coat
before proper flow is achieved.
• Wrong thinner or reducer. Under-diluted paint or paint thinned
with fast evaporating thinners or reducers causes the atomized
droplets to become too dry before reaching the surface. Too high
viscosity.
• Low shop temperature.
• Too little thinner or reducer.
• Materials not uniformly mixed. Many finishes are formulated with
components that aid coalescence. If these are not properly mixed,
orange peel will result.
• Substrate not sanded thoroughly

Prevention Techniques:
• Use proper gun adjustments, techniques,
and air pressure.
• Schedule painting to avoid temperature
and humidity extremes.
• Select the thinner or reducer that is
suitable for existing conditions. The use
of a slower evaporating thinner or
reducer will overcome this.
• Allow sufficient flash and dry time. Do
not dry by fanning.
• Allow proper drying time for undercoats
and topcoats. Not too long or not too
short.
• Reduce to recommended viscosity with
proper thinner/reducer.
• Stir all pigmented undercoats and
topcoats thoroughly.
• Prepare and sand substrate correctly.
• Follow recommendations on technical
data sheets.

Remedy
• For mild cases, sand and polish using
recommended materials and techniques.
• In extreme cases, sand down to smooth
surface and refinish, using a slower
evaporating thinner or reducer at the
correct air pressure.

Again - another expert talking about what it is and how to prevent it. Just thought I would share as I got it from my friends at Volvo.

KenHorse

I think it is very generous of GM not to charge us extra for this feature.....

meyerweb

If my DSOM arrives with lots of OP, I'll just nickname it "Sunkist."

hawkgfr

Please, don't give then any ideas...

owc6

Important life lesson : when life gives you lemons, squeeze them in the eyes of the people that **** you off.

BlessedHellride

Thank you for sharing your knowledge Hopper12!

TON C7S

That is a great post. Thank you for all that great info.

JohnAE455

Nice write-ups but still doesn't explain why orange peel looking paint seems to be a problem with several car companies, not just GM. I looked at a new ZO6 last Fri. and saw not only orange peel paint but when I looked down the side of the car the paint looked rough and the body panels were not flat. It looked like the paint had been applied with a paint roller. I think you should expect more in a car that costs over $109,000 MSRP. Maybe these paint dimples allow the car to go faster, like they do for a golf ball.

BTW, cost doesn't seem to be the answer. I have a 2000 Chevy Metro that has flatter panels and smoother paint (as in NO orange peal) then my vette.