Well if you disagree with me, you also disagree with Randy Pobst. "Threshold braking..its the strongest way to stop a car on track...its when tires develop their ultimate bite....this type of braking is the most common" - Randy Pobst

Here you go, he even does a test to prove threshold braking is better than ABS when it comes to stopping distance. I've done my own testing as well.

 

Yes Sir. They did not let us turn everything off except during the skid pad exercise. I would like to some day try tracking the car with everything off, but I'm not there yet. I need a more seat time before I would be ready for that.

 

There is some truth to short shifting. The car has a lot of low end torque and HP. It is easier to control the car in a corner in a higher gear with lower engine revs and a larger throttle opening than it is in a lower gear with higher engine revs and less throttle input. At the limit of traction in either gear you are putting the same amount of HP to the pavement but if you need to make a correction it is easier to adjust the throttle and work with the car's reaction to the adjustment in the higher gear. It is also easier to roll onto the throttle quicker and improve your corner exit speed since you don't have to be as careful about suddenly overloading the rear tires.

Bill

 

Excellent advice and explanation! Totally agree with everything you are saying as far as in a corner. But they were telling the auto guys to shift at 5,500rpm and us who were driving manual to use 4th gear on some of the short straights where 3rd would do just fine. I did hear one of the instructors admit that they didn't recommend short shifting because it was faster but because sometimes the cars overheat. I used 3rd gear on a lot of the slower corners as they recommended and it worked great. Easy throttle modulation as you mentioned. For the straights though peak power on the C7 is at ~5,900rpm iirc so it makes sense to go a bit over that so that when you shift you can ride the wave of power so to speak.

 

How about the PDR video with the music so we can hear the instructor telling you what to do from the drivers seat.


For someone who doesn't believe in the balancing the car you sure did a lot of it.

 

Curious if you tried to find out WHY Rick was advocating a slightly lower brake effort. I remember this being emphasized very strongly at the Level 1 class as well, and it seems counterintuitive at first, since it means that you are braking earlier and losing some of that top-end speed.

However, Randy said why in is video you linked above: exit speed is everything. You also mentioned it in your own posts: you found that you were over-braking in many of the corners, dropping your mid-corner speed and forcing you to get on the gas earlier than you wanted in order to bring your speed back up.

In essence, threshold braking gives you very little headroom for adjustment. You may have less options with trail braking since you are already too fast or too slow, you may be overloading the front tires so they have little grip left for turn-in, you may be upsetting the car by being too jerky with the brake application. There are probably additional reasons that braking a bit away from the limit can help people who aren't familiar with the track, who are a bit rusty, and who don't have much experience in a vette.

My co-worker did a private class with Rick, and also questioned this very thing. So Rick went out in one car while my co-worker followed. Rick would brake slightly earlier and softer in each corner, and my co-worker would gain some ground. However through the corner and on corner exit Rick was much faster and gained back even more, to the point where he was faster overall.

Obviously things are different in a race where one great way to pass is under braking, but for pure time, especially for those who are not professionals, leaving some braking "on the table" can be extremely useful for actual track days. Plus it helps the equipment (which is probably another reason that the school advocates braking a bit earlier and lighter).

What kind of times were you running at Seca, BTW? Another co-worker has a tuned STi and he is damn fast in that car. Those things can be made to be very impressive track cars.

And I agree that some of what the school recommends is more to save the equipment (short shifting for example). But for lots of the students it also helps the car control aspects as well. Oh yeah, one other vote for a video with no music. Hearing the tires, throttle, and any instruction can be very helpful for understanding what is happening.

Glad to hear you had fun overall, even if you didn't get along with Rick.

-T

 

If we're going to short shift and leave it in sport 1, I'm calling and cancelling. Sport 1 is so counterproductive to developing timing and technique. I bought the car to drive not let a steering angle sensor tell me when I can apply throttle. What the hell is the point of trying to learn anything if the car is doing the work??? What's the point of balancing the throttle if you can't get any?? The last time I was there, they did that with the stingray academy and it wasn't a learning experience it was touring laps. Even race mode intervenes and I'm not a huge fan. This isn't a Carrera GT. The cars have a tendency to understeer and exhibit reasonable balance without hypercar power.

I'm less than a month away from going and this is supremely disappointing.

 

I don't know where you got that from. When did I ever say I didn't believe in balancing? Balance is an essential part of driving fast. I was balancing my car on my first track day 5 years ago, granted fairly poorly but I was trying. I sure did learn a lot about how to move the weight around at Spring Mountain though.

 

I only have timing from my first ever track day ran a low 1:49 don't know if that's good or not. It was a pretty crowded track day so lots of traffic as well.

 

From my experience there the instructors will work with you on wich mode
You should be driving in , it depends how smooth your inputs are and how much the traction control kicks in ,they have spotters roving around the track and they can tell by the exhaust note how much the traction and stabiltity control is kicking in on the car ,if your on the right line ,hitting all your apexes and you feel the electronics are intervening to much all you have to do is talk with them and they will do a ride along with you and adjust it accordingly ,but saftey is a big priority with them

 

A low 1:49 is quite good. I've been told that anything under 2:00 is moving well. I typically run a 1:52 - 1:53 (Harry's Lap Timer) in my 350Z and that was with R888 tires. I was a few seconds slower on street tires.

When I went it was mid June and the weather was 100+. We ran the cars with AC and seat coolers going. Short shifting was the initial recommendation (in fact, some of the first laps were done totally in 4th gear) to learn the line and get a feel for the balance of the car in the smoothest possible way, but as time went on and they got a feel for your capabilities, the shifting opened up as well.

I remember the Vette being extremely well balanced and being able to easily get the rear end around during turn-in and under power. I know we started in Sport 1, but may have changed to other modes on the third day.

I thought the class was valuable even for someone with experience, since it provided some fine tuning of many points I had picked up over the years.

-T

 

Awesome I had no idea. The C7 is in another league entirely than the STi. That lap time was done when I was only making 260whp, street tires and mostly stock suspension. I might be able to get into the low 1:40s in the Stingray. Thanks for the insight!

 

Being young always seems tough when you are there thinking you are not getting the respect you feel you deserve. Once you get old you realize respect is earned and you can appreciate why it was not always given to you when you were younger. OP head up you are young and drive a Corvette. I would trade the respect people give me now in a heartbeat to be young again!

Grasshopper the oxen are slow but the earth is patient.

 

Thejoyofdriving did you attend the January 15/16 Level 2?

 

I'm hoping since early March temps are normally in the 70's, overheating won't be much of an issue. I hope we progress past sport one quite fast. The steering angle limiter is downright infuriating.

When I rode with the instructors last time, it's definitely a boon to use second under 65 MPH and roll into 3rd hard around 70. I've always liked utilizing some engine braking to balance the car as well. Being able to scrub a touch of speed by lifting to keep the balance without engaging the brakes is beneficial to me.

 

Yes Sir.

 

Take a look at this thread - scroll down to post# 21 to about 25. I don't know if the Ricky (Richie?, Rick?) is the same as the one in this thread.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...-mountain.html

.

 

I believe they are talking about another instructor. I know who they are referring to. I actually didn't have any problems with him at all but then again I didn't interact much with him either. All the other instructors were great, Rick Malone was the only gentleman I had any issues with.

I will say that the instructors did a great job in placing myself and others. After the initial observation period they moved me from the slowest group to the fastest and there were very few points that I felt I was being held up. Of course they will sometimes get it wrong and fast people will end up with slow people. I think if I went to level 1 I would have been bored out or my mind, if I was lapping people 3x in one session in level 2 my experience would have probably been the same as the other guy who posted. The only time I was extremely bored in level 2 was doing the heel toe downshifts. I heel toe every day, never use the rev match feature. The classroom stuff was very remedial, my girlfriend mentioned that they didn't teach anything that I hadn't already taught her over the years but she enjoyed learning it again.

All in all level 2 was a great experience, a highlight of my life. I'm really glad I didn't do level 1.

 

Let me get this straight. You were in the fastest group, lapping people 3 times in a single session, and felt you had been "held up" a few times. You also seem to say you already taught your girlfriend everything that was taught in Level 2.

I hate to disappoint you, but Level 3 may not have been any better. What you needed to do is apply to be an instructor at the school, or put you money where your mouth is and open your own school.

I am sorry, but your ego is writing checks your body can't cash.