Electric Corvette?
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 69
From: Waverly Tennessee
An in-law made the point that getting in that car for most people would be amazing while I'm just unimpressed with it.
Oh, the woes of daily driving a Corvette.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 1,659
From: Las Vegas NV
The oil industry gets no government help? The electric drive industry is in its infancy, its not fair to say that because its getting government help, that its a boondoggle. Its getting help to get off the ground and create the infrastructure the oil industry has enjoyed for decades.
It's a fair, direct and simple question.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
1. Most houses in America are not up to code, even new ones. Houses go up fast and many things get missed and no inspectors don't always catch them. Older houses are under grandfather clauses unless there is new construction.
2. I wouldn't say no one complanes about public transit being subsidized. I've been complaining for years and pushing for privitization of public transit and cutting funding to public transit. I don't think I'm the only one am I?
3. I'll admit batteries are improving and are here to stay possibly. I'm pushing back on the idea that we will be full electric. I think it would be more accurate to say hybrid systems are the future. I expect the corvette to be more like the Lafarrari, 918, P1, and NSX in the future. Due to cost and materials I think batteries so have many obsticles that week keep them from replacing combustion in the low end affordable car market any time soon.
Lastly I will make the change the instant the benifit out weights the cost. Don't get me wrong I'm sceptical not stupid.
2. I wouldn't say no one complanes about public transit being subsidized. I've been complaining for years and pushing for privitization of public transit and cutting funding to public transit. I don't think I'm the only one am I?
3. I'll admit batteries are improving and are here to stay possibly. I'm pushing back on the idea that we will be full electric. I think it would be more accurate to say hybrid systems are the future. I expect the corvette to be more like the Lafarrari, 918, P1, and NSX in the future. Due to cost and materials I think batteries so have many obsticles that week keep them from replacing combustion in the low end affordable car market any time soon.
Lastly I will make the change the instant the benifit out weights the cost. Don't get me wrong I'm sceptical not stupid.
I see the buses everywhere and I never see more than a couple of riders on them. Big scam.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
If ALL the costs of the R&D, tooling etc to bring the Volt to market was distributed evenly across the number of Volts sold, $39,000 wouldn't buy the wheels. That's not including the brides(AKA rebates, LOL) from local and the feds to get people to buy one.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 1,659
From: Las Vegas NV
But there is some debate over the accuracy of that number, and so, for the sake of simplicity and in an attempt to keep the question as clean and simple as possible, I was just asking about the willingness to pay the Volt MSRP without the benefits of taxpayer-sponsored, direct-to-purchaser kickbacks.
So:
If you had to write a $39,000 check for a Volt (its MSRP), and, just like any non-EV car, you don't get any money back, would you buy it?
Is it still worth the approx $15,000 price premium over a very similar Malibu?
Last edited by Kent1999; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:36 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
This Elio?
Why would I buy it?
I'm not complaining about the amount of gas I buy for my Mercedes DD and my three Corvettes.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...lers-like-elio
Why would I buy it?
I'm not complaining about the amount of gas I buy for my Mercedes DD and my three Corvettes.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...lers-like-elio
Last edited by JoesC5; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:32 PM.
Pro
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 602
Likes: 119
From: Southern Ontario
Economics doesn't matter, the government is involved , forget costing , forget demand for the product, forget trying to turn a profit, thou shall produce electric vehicles... and pay Tesla for producing theirs at the same time through those ZEV credits ...
As shown on the California Air Resources Board website, a manufacturer of battery-electric vehicles can earn up to seven credits per vehicle sold and each credit can reduce a manufacturer's ZEV mandate liability by $5,000. One battery-electric vehicle sale can literally offset $35,000 worth of fines levied on any manufacturer which otherwise hasn't earned its required credits.
Manufacturers producing only battery-electric vehicles such as Tesla will always have excess ZEV credits to sell to other manufacturers and a ZEV credit's value is in its ability to offset a $5,000 fine. The Tesla Model S is a Type III vehicle, as defined by the California Air Resources Board, and is therefore eligible to earn four credits per vehicle which can theoretically boost Tesla's bottom line by up to $20,000 per vehicle sold.
Tesla's ZEV credit sales produce a revenue stream at no cost and which falls straight through to operating income. In the third quarter of 2016, Tesla raised eyebrows when it disclosed it had sold $139M worth of ZEV credits in the quarter, up from $39M a year earlier. These revenues turned what would have been a quarterly loss for Tesla, into a $22M gain.
As shown on the California Air Resources Board website, a manufacturer of battery-electric vehicles can earn up to seven credits per vehicle sold and each credit can reduce a manufacturer's ZEV mandate liability by $5,000. One battery-electric vehicle sale can literally offset $35,000 worth of fines levied on any manufacturer which otherwise hasn't earned its required credits.
Manufacturers producing only battery-electric vehicles such as Tesla will always have excess ZEV credits to sell to other manufacturers and a ZEV credit's value is in its ability to offset a $5,000 fine. The Tesla Model S is a Type III vehicle, as defined by the California Air Resources Board, and is therefore eligible to earn four credits per vehicle which can theoretically boost Tesla's bottom line by up to $20,000 per vehicle sold.
Tesla's ZEV credit sales produce a revenue stream at no cost and which falls straight through to operating income. In the third quarter of 2016, Tesla raised eyebrows when it disclosed it had sold $139M worth of ZEV credits in the quarter, up from $39M a year earlier. These revenues turned what would have been a quarterly loss for Tesla, into a $22M gain.
Last edited by C7DriverOnt; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:27 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Agreed. Some Detriot analysts estimate that GM loses $49,000 per car on the Volt, if R&D costs were amortized.
But there is some debate over the accuracy of that number, and so, for the sake of simplicity and in an attempt to keep the question as simple as possible, I was just asking about the willingness to pay the Volt MSRP without the benefits of taxpayer-sponsored, direct-to-purchaser kickbacks. Is it still worth the approx $15,000 price premium over a Malibu?
But there is some debate over the accuracy of that number, and so, for the sake of simplicity and in an attempt to keep the question as simple as possible, I was just asking about the willingness to pay the Volt MSRP without the benefits of taxpayer-sponsored, direct-to-purchaser kickbacks. Is it still worth the approx $15,000 price premium over a Malibu?
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Pro
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 602
Likes: 119
From: Southern Ontario
Then there is that nagging problem that the resale market doesn't like EV's, from Car and Driver last month... maybe folks that really want one should by a second hand one.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/evs-ar...resale-values/
EVs Are Cheap to Run but Expensive to Own, Thanks to Abysmal Resale Values
August 31, 2017
If you’re planning to buy a new electric car, you’d better be prepared for some sticker shock—not when you buy the car, but when you sell it.
Electric cars are more efficient than gasoline or diesel vehicles, and they save serious money—a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a year, depending on the vehicle type—using electricity from the grid versus fuel from the gas station. They cost less to maintain and repair, too. But all that money saved—even including the $7500 federal EV tax credit that will sweeten your first year—won’t counter the worst thing to befall most EVs: horrendous depreciation.
Electric vehicles lose more than $5700 per year, on average, over the first five years. That’s about $28,500 off their original price compared to an average of less than $3200 a year or $16,000 over five years across all vehicle types.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/evs-ar...resale-values/
EVs Are Cheap to Run but Expensive to Own, Thanks to Abysmal Resale Values
August 31, 2017
If you’re planning to buy a new electric car, you’d better be prepared for some sticker shock—not when you buy the car, but when you sell it.
Electric cars are more efficient than gasoline or diesel vehicles, and they save serious money—a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a year, depending on the vehicle type—using electricity from the grid versus fuel from the gas station. They cost less to maintain and repair, too. But all that money saved—even including the $7500 federal EV tax credit that will sweeten your first year—won’t counter the worst thing to befall most EVs: horrendous depreciation.
Electric vehicles lose more than $5700 per year, on average, over the first five years. That’s about $28,500 off their original price compared to an average of less than $3200 a year or $16,000 over five years across all vehicle types.
Last edited by C7DriverOnt; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:31 PM.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 41,732
Likes: 1,718
From: Springfield MO
Economics doesn't matter, the government is involved , forget costing , forget demand for the product, forget trying to turn a profit, thou shall produce electric vehicles... and pay Tesla for producing theirs at the same time through those ZEV credits ...
As shown on the California Air Resources Board website, a manufacturer of battery-electric vehicles can earn up to seven credits per vehicle sold and each credit can reduce a manufacturer's ZEV mandate liability by $5,000. One battery-electric vehicle sale can literally offset $35,000 worth of fines levied on any manufacturer which otherwise hasn't earned its required credits.
Manufacturers producing only battery-electric vehicles such as Tesla will always have excess ZEV credits to sell to other manufacturers and a ZEV credit's value is in its ability to offset a $5,000 fine. The Tesla Model S is a Type III vehicle, as defined by the California Air Resources Board, and is therefore eligible to earn four credits per vehicle which can theoretically boost Tesla's bottom line by up to $20,000 per vehicle sold.
Tesla's ZEV credit sales produce a revenue stream at no cost and which falls straight through to operating income. In the third quarter of 2016, Tesla raised eyebrows when it disclosed it had sold $139M worth of ZEV credits in the quarter, up from $39M a year earlier. These revenues turned what would have been a quarterly loss for Tesla, into a $22M gain.
As shown on the California Air Resources Board website, a manufacturer of battery-electric vehicles can earn up to seven credits per vehicle sold and each credit can reduce a manufacturer's ZEV mandate liability by $5,000. One battery-electric vehicle sale can literally offset $35,000 worth of fines levied on any manufacturer which otherwise hasn't earned its required credits.
Manufacturers producing only battery-electric vehicles such as Tesla will always have excess ZEV credits to sell to other manufacturers and a ZEV credit's value is in its ability to offset a $5,000 fine. The Tesla Model S is a Type III vehicle, as defined by the California Air Resources Board, and is therefore eligible to earn four credits per vehicle which can theoretically boost Tesla's bottom line by up to $20,000 per vehicle sold.
Tesla's ZEV credit sales produce a revenue stream at no cost and which falls straight through to operating income. In the third quarter of 2016, Tesla raised eyebrows when it disclosed it had sold $139M worth of ZEV credits in the quarter, up from $39M a year earlier. These revenues turned what would have been a quarterly loss for Tesla, into a $22M gain.
Last edited by JoesC5; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:42 PM.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 193
Likes: 43
From: Roanoke (near Dallas) Texas
No thanks. If I had WANTED a Tesla, I would have BOUGHT a Tesla.
Contrary to the libs -- this doesn't *have* to happen. We're not running out of oil anytime in the foreseeable future that we have to artificially push technologies that are just not ready.
If electric cars are so great, then why does the Gov't need to subsidize their sales? Take off all the subsidies (owner AND manufacturer), and see where sales (and prices) go.
If electric cars are so awesome, certainly they can survive without the gov't subsidies and tax incentives.
Contrary to the libs -- this doesn't *have* to happen. We're not running out of oil anytime in the foreseeable future that we have to artificially push technologies that are just not ready.
If electric cars are so great, then why does the Gov't need to subsidize their sales? Take off all the subsidies (owner AND manufacturer), and see where sales (and prices) go.
If electric cars are so awesome, certainly they can survive without the gov't subsidies and tax incentives.
I own an all electric car as well as a Vette. The electric is really sweet. The torque and power are amazing. The corvette shifting to electric is nothing any of us need dred.
The reason for the subsidies are to counter act the demand dip due to battery price, range dip, and home hardware. Or, more strategically, to get people to go a little easier on the greenhouse gasses.
We are like a virus. We consume until there is no more. That is likely how we will end. Fairly soon too, based on global population projections.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 1,659
From: Las Vegas NV
It is not really about supply or demand. Price would handle that. Gas gets to $10 a gallon, and people will shift to electric. It is about the environment. Cars, cows, and shipping wreak havok on greenhouse gas levels.
I own an all electric car as well as a Vette. The electric is really sweet. The torque and power are amazing. The corvette shifting to electric is nothing any of us need dred.
The reason for the subsidies are to counter act the demand dip due to battery price, range dip, and home hardware. Or, more strategically, to get people to go a little easier on the greenhouse gasses.
We are like a virus. We consume until there is no more. That is likely how we will end. Fairly soon too, based on global population projections.
I own an all electric car as well as a Vette. The electric is really sweet. The torque and power are amazing. The corvette shifting to electric is nothing any of us need dred.
The reason for the subsidies are to counter act the demand dip due to battery price, range dip, and home hardware. Or, more strategically, to get people to go a little easier on the greenhouse gasses.
We are like a virus. We consume until there is no more. That is likely how we will end. Fairly soon too, based on global population projections.
Hopefully you're not part of that clan!
Last edited by Kent1999; Oct 5, 2017 at 03:53 PM.
Thread Starter
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 69
From: Waverly Tennessee
This Elio?
Why would I buy it?
I'm not complaining about the amount of gas I buy for my Mercedes DD and my three Corvettes.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...lers-like-elio
Why would I buy it?
I'm not complaining about the amount of gas I buy for my Mercedes DD and my three Corvettes.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...lers-like-elio
It was a joke. No need to get defensive.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 830
From: Brighton Mi
Thats kind of a funny question. Yes. Because if it was unsubsidized, that would mean the market is there for the electric car to not need help and therefore a good reason to buy it at that price.
What I'm saying is that, price is dictated by the market, and once electric gets infrastructure where its as convenient or more than ICE vehicles, it will be game over.
I know you are trying to say that anything that needs a subsidy is not competitive, well then you need to look at a lot of other industries. Do you not eat food from farms that receive government subsidy? What about ethanol which is heavily subsidized? That happens to go in the fuel you used in your "unsubsidized" ICE vehicle.
Last edited by spinkick; Oct 5, 2017 at 04:29 PM.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 1,659
From: Las Vegas NV
Thats kind of a funny question. Yes. Because if it was unsubsidized, that would mean the market is there for the electric car to not need help and therefore a good reason to buy it at that price.
What I'm saying is that, price is dictated by the market, and once electric gets infrastructure where its as convenient or more than ICE vehicles, it will be game over.
What I'm saying is that, price is dictated by the market, and once electric gets infrastructure where its as convenient or more than ICE vehicles, it will be game over.
But for today if you walked into a Chevy dealership with your checkbook, is your answer "no, I wouldn't buy the Volt today without the govt subsidies"?
Would you buy or not today?
To your example about food subsidies: When I walk into the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk, I can think all day about what kind of tax breaks the farmer might get. But in the end, do I buy the milk at the marked price or don't I?
Last edited by Kent1999; Oct 5, 2017 at 04:31 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 830
From: Brighton Mi
I understand what you are saying, but 100% disagree with your final statement that humans are like a virus on the earth. Perhaps that was just humor? Hard to say these days as there are some very vocal groups who hold the view that humans "infest" the earth and somehow are like an alien plague that should be wiped out, for the good of the planet.
Hopefully you're not part of that clan!
Hopefully you're not part of that clan!
Safety Car
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 830
From: Brighton Mi
Your prognostication about the future might be correct.
But for today if you walked into a Chevy dealership with your checkbook, is your answer "no, I wouldn't buy the Volt today without the govt subsidies"?
Would you buy or not today?
To your example about food subsidies: When I walk into the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk, I can think all day about what kind of tax breaks the farmer might get. But in the end, do I buy the milk at the marked price or don't I?
But for today if you walked into a Chevy dealership with your checkbook, is your answer "no, I wouldn't buy the Volt today without the govt subsidies"?
Would you buy or not today?
To your example about food subsidies: When I walk into the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk, I can think all day about what kind of tax breaks the farmer might get. But in the end, do I buy the milk at the marked price or don't I?
I'm going to see how long my volt lasts. 200k?
I expect that GM will eat the cost once the subsidies run out, I'm thinking they are almost out for the volt.
Last edited by spinkick; Oct 5, 2017 at 04:40 PM.
Racer
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 279
Likes: 133
6 minute charge
Le Mans Master
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 1,659
From: Las Vegas NV
That day maybe closer than some people think. Toshiba has announced a new battery that can charge for 320 km (200 miles) range in 6 minutes
6 minute charge
6 minute charge
Even if you are not a fan of electric cars, such fast recharge capability would have a lot of other applications.
Thanks for the link!
Last edited by Kent1999; Oct 5, 2017 at 05:44 PM.
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 4,980
Likes: 3,826
From: Bainbridge Island WA
Umm, just FYI Evs are far outselling corvettes: https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/...m-close-behind
Given the Corvette sales for last month, which is about 1500 or so, it's kind of funny to hear the Corvette forum proclaim that EV's will never work.
Americans bought more electric vehicles in September than any other month this year. According to Inside EV's monthly sales report, 21,325 battery EVs and plug-in hybrid EVs found homes last month. That's 20 percent more than this time last year and the second highest number ever. 2017 looks like it will be a record year; a total of 159,614 EVs were sold, a figure that should easily be eclipsed by the end of October. Tesla leads the pack, thanks to healthy increases in both Model S and Model X sales this month. Tesla may suffer some good-natured teasing about frequently missed deadlines, but you could set your watch by the regularity of its quarter-ending jump in deliveries. Barring some unforeseen circumstance, the Model S will remain the best-selling EV for the third year running. Like the overall trend, sales for the startup EV maker are up compared to last year, and even if the Model 3 continues to frustrate, we expect it to break the 50,000 car barrier by year-end.
Given the Corvette sales for last month, which is about 1500 or so, it's kind of funny to hear the Corvette forum proclaim that EV's will never work.