C7 Engine failure / REBUILD at 4K Miles???
05-24-2018, 07:17 PM
#41
Race Director
I am going to assume none of you folks ever read your warranty. Every new car warranty I have ever seen, including Rolls Royce, states they will repair or replace components which would be items such as the engine, transmission, rear end. etc. The warranty also states they do not have any responsibility to replace the entire vehicle. The exception would be the statements pertaining to the Lemon Laws in each state and their provisions. No state has a Lemon Law that would force repurchase for a one time engine failure.
GM has already offered to extend the warranty and to make a monetary contribution. It would seem there is great effort there. Any B.S that the vehicle is automatically worth $20,000 less is pure nonsense. I have replaced or repaired hundreds of engines under warranty including in my own new Bentley and unless you are running around with a sign on the car, a 25-30% reduction in value is a ridiculous thought!
GM has already offered to extend the warranty and to make a monetary contribution. It would seem there is great effort there. Any B.S that the vehicle is automatically worth $20,000 less is pure nonsense. I have replaced or repaired hundreds of engines under warranty including in my own new Bentley and unless you are running around with a sign on the car, a 25-30% reduction in value is a ridiculous thought!
You are taking just the position on this topic as a 'dealer' would be expected to take.
Last edited by Kevin A Jones; 05-24-2018 at 07:44 PM.
05-24-2018, 07:24 PM
#42
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Where does it begin and end? We've read of people on here with their entire rear diff, and trans pulled from the car. Most don't get a new car. How about a fuel pump where the entire tanks have to be pulled? No new car. These are all "item" defects or assembly issues. There is no printed threshold for when a car is replaced (other than each state's lemon law), or when it is repaired. For that reason, a repair seems to be justified.
Answer this: are there other car manufacturers who state their policy is they WILL replace cars for this same issue? I'd really like to know.
Answer this: are there other car manufacturers who state their policy is they WILL replace cars for this same issue? I'd really like to know.
Thank you for your comments I appreciate hearing both sides of this argument.
05-24-2018, 07:33 PM
#43
Intermediate
Thread Starter
I think if I were you I would have the sales dept come up with a price on a new car that is similar, and a trade in value for the car in the shop. Have them calculate what it will cost you to trade out of the failed engine car. Once you do that then you can approach GM with actual numbers. Guessing wont help. Ultimately, if this is settled in court, someone is going to have to establish a dollar amount for damages. You are probably better off being able to point at them as the source for your figures. This is good faith anyway. Position yourself now to win the war later, because if you do a good enough job at it then there wont even be a battle.
05-24-2018, 07:38 PM
#44
Fellow Corvette owners & lovers, I am in need of help and advice. I am also looking for someone from GM (advisor?) who can help me understand the decisions by GM that have lead me to this forum for help.
About a year ago, I purchased a brand new C7, Grand Sport. I have since put less than 4500 miles on the car. Earlier this month (May 2018), a knocking sound developed in the engine and I took it to a local dealer. What they told me shocked me. The factory had installed a journal bearing incorrectly on a piston rod, and now the engine is out of the car in a thousand pieces as the dealer, GM and myself haggle over the solution. Engine components (including a new crankshaft) will have to be replaced!
GM wants to rebuild the engine and give the car back to me, with "one payment" as compensation. They will also extend the warranty.
I want no part of that. A rebuilt engine on a brand new Corvette? The intrinsic (and RESALE) value of this car has now been permanently diminished. No one is going to give me top dollar for a car that's had an engine rebuild of this magnitude at just over 4000 miles, and I am not convinced that other issues will not be introduced during the rebuild, which is being done at a dealer, not an engine shop.
Someone please help me here. I am being told by GM that I'm asking too much to have them buy back this car so I can then buy another C7. I don't think that's too much to ask. I purchased this car with retirement money to be able to enjoy in retirement. It's the first Vette I've been able to buy new and GM is treating this like it's a Chevy Sonic.
What should be my next course of action? I have been talking with GM reps but am hitting a brick wall on anything with them buying back this defective car. Again, I'm willing to buy a new 2017 / 18 or 19 C7 if we can find common ground.
Updated Status - May 24th - I spoke with a Chevy Dealer in Chicago today. They have a similar Grand Sport that I would be willing to purchase. They confirmed as I suspected that no one is going to give me top $$ for this car now that it has been affected by a factory defect.
Has anyone else had a similar issue with GM? Or this kind of problem with your new C7?
About a year ago, I purchased a brand new C7, Grand Sport. I have since put less than 4500 miles on the car. Earlier this month (May 2018), a knocking sound developed in the engine and I took it to a local dealer. What they told me shocked me. The factory had installed a journal bearing incorrectly on a piston rod, and now the engine is out of the car in a thousand pieces as the dealer, GM and myself haggle over the solution. Engine components (including a new crankshaft) will have to be replaced!
GM wants to rebuild the engine and give the car back to me, with "one payment" as compensation. They will also extend the warranty.
I want no part of that. A rebuilt engine on a brand new Corvette? The intrinsic (and RESALE) value of this car has now been permanently diminished. No one is going to give me top dollar for a car that's had an engine rebuild of this magnitude at just over 4000 miles, and I am not convinced that other issues will not be introduced during the rebuild, which is being done at a dealer, not an engine shop.
Someone please help me here. I am being told by GM that I'm asking too much to have them buy back this car so I can then buy another C7. I don't think that's too much to ask. I purchased this car with retirement money to be able to enjoy in retirement. It's the first Vette I've been able to buy new and GM is treating this like it's a Chevy Sonic.
What should be my next course of action? I have been talking with GM reps but am hitting a brick wall on anything with them buying back this defective car. Again, I'm willing to buy a new 2017 / 18 or 19 C7 if we can find common ground.
Updated Status - May 24th - I spoke with a Chevy Dealer in Chicago today. They have a similar Grand Sport that I would be willing to purchase. They confirmed as I suspected that no one is going to give me top $$ for this car now that it has been affected by a factory defect.
Has anyone else had a similar issue with GM? Or this kind of problem with your new C7?
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RCraigPorter (05-24-2018)
05-24-2018, 07:40 PM
#45
Race Director
Kevin, you seem to confirm what I have been hearing from others I discuss this with. I have a colleague who builds engines for a living and he says almost word for word what you are saying. No telling what damage was done, what shavings were lodged in other parts of the engine that will no not be evident until much later, and on top of that the dealer does not have a clean room to build this, and parts are scattered all over the place. In other words, not an ideal place to rebuild an engine for a $75K high-end sports car. I have already confirmed with another Chevy dealer that if I were to drive it up there after the rebuild, they would not give me near top $$ for the car. That's my argument in a nutshell. Diminished value.
Thanks for your post, appreciate your response.
Thanks for your post, appreciate your response.
I owned and operated a chain of auto parts stores for 16 years and was a distributor of TRW and Seal Power engine parts and FelPro engine gaskets and sold to dozens of the most knowledgeable and experience builders of automotive, industrial/truck and racing engines out there. Attended many manufacturer's seminars and have handled many warranties and failure analysis of engine rebuilds and have re-built collector grade car engines myself. So I do have quite a bit of 'hand on' experience, not that it equals the "internet" engine experience of some others posting here.
I wish you the best of luck in getting your unfortunate mess sorted out to your satisfaction.
05-24-2018, 07:42 PM
#46
Team Owner
Agree with you, the $20K figure is probably high. But even if it were $5K, what's the difference? Due to a factory defect, which was admitted at the dealer when the car was disassembled into a thousand parts, the manufacturer is not wiling to pony up a few thousand $$ to make this owner whole. In other words, why should I pay for a mistake that the factory made? I understand lemon laws and warranties, but I would argue that not all defects are the same. A pushrod replacement is much much different than a defective piston rod assembly. My concern is that when the engine is re-assembled at the dealer, other issues could be introduced which will cause me even more time, effort, trouble down the road I bought this car to enjoy, not to spend the rest of my life fixing it.
They do do 'buybacks', where they will agree to 'buyback' the car or get you in a new car with minimum outlay to avoid having a "lemon" titled car.
When they do a "buyback' the car can be sold on the Chevrolet dealer's used car lot just as with any car traded in. They don't even have to do any "fixes" to the car. Just put it on the used car lot with the remainder of the original warranty, with a clear title, and if the person that buys it off the used car lot has problems down the road, then GM just treats it like any warranty repair. The person who buys the car off the used car lot, never realizes that the car was a 'buyback', as it is handled as a used car being traded in on a new car, or a used car bought by the dealer for his used car lot.
This is how is it was done on my friends 2015 Z51. GM gave him a new 2016 Z51 and his 2015 Z51 was put on the dealers used car lot with a clear title and was sold within 2 weeks. The car then showed up back on the dealer's used car lot approximately 3,000 miles later.
All because of multiple A8 problems and GM did not want the car with a branded title.
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RCraigPorter (05-24-2018)
05-24-2018, 07:47 PM
#47
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Sound like you have been discussing your situation with those who have experience and knowledge of the subject.
I owned and operated a chain of auto parts stores for 16 years and was a distributor of TRW and Seal Power engine parts and FelPro engine gaskets and sold to dozens of the most knowledgeable and experience builders of automotive, industrial/truck and racing engines out there. Attended many manufacturer's seminars and have handled many warranties and failure analysis of engine rebuilds and have re-built collector grade car engines myself. So I do have quite a bit of 'hand on' experience, not that it equals the "internet" engine experience of some others posting here.
I wish you the best of luck in getting your unfortunate mess sorted out to your satisfaction.
I owned and operated a chain of auto parts stores for 16 years and was a distributor of TRW and Seal Power engine parts and FelPro engine gaskets and sold to dozens of the most knowledgeable and experience builders of automotive, industrial/truck and racing engines out there. Attended many manufacturer's seminars and have handled many warranties and failure analysis of engine rebuilds and have re-built collector grade car engines myself. So I do have quite a bit of 'hand on' experience, not that it equals the "internet" engine experience of some others posting here.
I wish you the best of luck in getting your unfortunate mess sorted out to your satisfaction.
05-24-2018, 07:51 PM
#48
Intermediate
Thread Starter
The last thing GM wants is a car with a 'branded' title, as they know it won't bring much when run through their dealer's auctions.
They do do 'buybacks', where they will agree to 'buyback' the car or get you in a new car with minimum outlay to avoid having a "lemon" titled car.
When they do a "buyback' the car can be sold on the Chevrolet dealer's used car lot just as with any car traded in. They don't even have to do any "fixes" to the car. Just put it on the used car lot with the remainder of the original warranty, with a clear title, and if the person that buys it off the used car lot has problems down the road, then GM just treats it like any warranty repair. The person who buys the car off the used car lot, never realizes that the car was a 'buyback', as it is handled as a used car being traded in on a new car, or a used car bought by the dealer for his used car lot.
This is how is it was done on my friends 2015 Z51. GM gave him a new 2016 Z51 and his 2015 Z51 was put on the dealers used car lot with a clear title and was sold within 2 weeks. The car then showed up back on the dealer's used car lot approximately 3,000 miles later.
All because of multiple A8 problems and GM did not want the car with a branded title.
They do do 'buybacks', where they will agree to 'buyback' the car or get you in a new car with minimum outlay to avoid having a "lemon" titled car.
When they do a "buyback' the car can be sold on the Chevrolet dealer's used car lot just as with any car traded in. They don't even have to do any "fixes" to the car. Just put it on the used car lot with the remainder of the original warranty, with a clear title, and if the person that buys it off the used car lot has problems down the road, then GM just treats it like any warranty repair. The person who buys the car off the used car lot, never realizes that the car was a 'buyback', as it is handled as a used car being traded in on a new car, or a used car bought by the dealer for his used car lot.
This is how is it was done on my friends 2015 Z51. GM gave him a new 2016 Z51 and his 2015 Z51 was put on the dealers used car lot with a clear title and was sold within 2 weeks. The car then showed up back on the dealer's used car lot approximately 3,000 miles later.
All because of multiple A8 problems and GM did not want the car with a branded title.
05-24-2018, 07:52 PM
#49
Melting Slicks
I would never.
NEVER
Let any ANY dealership, maybe ESPECIALLY a dealership,
Put their filthy hands on any of my engine internals.
F@*(#&*@# that. You are all crazy and have ZERO experience in engine-rebuild-world if you think this is even REMOTELY a good idea.
NEVER
Let any ANY dealership, maybe ESPECIALLY a dealership,
Put their filthy hands on any of my engine internals.
F@*(#&*@# that. You are all crazy and have ZERO experience in engine-rebuild-world if you think this is even REMOTELY a good idea.
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05-24-2018, 07:57 PM
#50
Race Director
Lol … Feeling hostile today ?
05-24-2018, 08:10 PM
#51
Melting Slicks
Haha. The idea of anything, let alone a dealer, touching engine internals...
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
05-24-2018, 08:15 PM
#52
Race Director
Haha. The idea of anything, let alone a dealer, touching engine internals...
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
I would add that the few techs that do understand all those complications usually quit being techs after a few years and move on towards something more inline with their abilities.
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RCraigPorter (05-24-2018)
05-24-2018, 08:35 PM
#54
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Haha. The idea of anything, let alone a dealer, touching engine internals...
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
... might as well be dirty roaches and diseased rats crawling through it. May as well grind them all up and slather the internals with chocolate insect parts for it would do more good than anything they could muster with any amount of effort.
The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine.
Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp.
05-24-2018, 08:38 PM
#55
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RCraigPorter (05-24-2018)
05-24-2018, 09:21 PM
#56
Team Owner
Member Since: Jun 2005
Location: Northern, VA
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
A. So, the OP had an engine problem at 4500 miles of a new-car purchase---have you? And, if you have, please describe where you got it fixed, under warranty, of course?
"You are all crazy and have ZERO experience in engine-rebuild-world if you think this is even REMOTELY a good idea." Kingtalon
B. Therefore, is it true the engine designers, who don't build the engines, are absolutely appalled when typical mechanics assemble their engines and they break?
"The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine." Kingtalon
C. Are these are the same mechanics and techs that assemble your car, too, after engine designers design it?
"Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp." Kingtalon
"You are all crazy and have ZERO experience in engine-rebuild-world if you think this is even REMOTELY a good idea." Kingtalon
B. Therefore, is it true the engine designers, who don't build the engines, are absolutely appalled when typical mechanics assemble their engines and they break?
"The people who design the engine, are NOT the ones that work on it when you take it in for service. Having enough knowledge to design engine parts requires knowledge of molecular sciences in some fundamental capacity, which tends to bring into light the specificity, cleanliness and inscrutable fidelity required within an engine." Kingtalon
C. Are these are the same mechanics and techs that assemble your car, too, after engine designers design it?
"Something that typical mechanics/techs do not grasp." Kingtalon
As others have also mentioned, plus extended warranty if they do replace with a crate engine.
05-24-2018, 10:18 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
thanks for questions, I appreciate the chance/effort
Actually I've always preferred to buy engines which already have 40,000 or more miles on them to avoid these type of holdup. I'd sooner buy a brand new, somewhat crashed vehicle, fix it properly and put a used engine in it for fun to drive and race, rather than buy a brand new one, if only for sake of reliability, and it has potential to turn profit if done right. For those wishing to maintain the value of their vehicles it is best to start off paying much less than what they are currently worth.
I mean, wouldn't you be? How would they know though?
It sounds like a personal question. Everybody could answer this differently. Some people replaced every single part and heavily modified their car, so no not always. I personally enjoy the reliability that comes with slightly used parts in my daily driver, it should go at least 50-100k without doing much, so I tend to use ORIGINAL crankshaft/rod/piston in unopened, well maintained engines, which for the majority of daily driver applications there exist quite a few OEM options which support, say, a 9-10 second daily driver, you know, going 150 in around 10 seconds usually gets the job done, and can be done repeatedly using engines old as 15 years.
B. Therefore, is it true the engine designers, who don't build the engines, are absolutely appalled when typical mechanics assemble their engines and they break?
C. Are these are the same mechanics and techs that assemble your car, too, after engine designers design it?
05-24-2018, 10:25 PM
#59
Burning Brakes
I see this the opposite way. Fix the old engine and you can still say original engine in 30 years. Get a new one and you can’t
05-25-2018, 12:03 AM
#60
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
There is no lemon law “suit.” The OP’s car doesn’t meet the criteria for a lemon law buyback.