C7 to be the last manual Corvette?
09-10-2018, 07:44 PM
#21
Safety Car
This is a GOOD thing.
All the top tier sport cars in the mid 2000s that have completely gone away from full 3 pedal manuals, all the manual versions have SPIKED big time in value. A late 200x model BMW M whatever, manual Ferraris, manual Porsches, especially pre 996, manual Lambos, ALL are fetching values 5-20% HIGHER than their auto or automated manual counterparts.
All the top tier sport cars in the mid 2000s that have completely gone away from full 3 pedal manuals, all the manual versions have SPIKED big time in value. A late 200x model BMW M whatever, manual Ferraris, manual Porsches, especially pre 996, manual Lambos, ALL are fetching values 5-20% HIGHER than their auto or automated manual counterparts.
09-10-2018, 07:49 PM
#22
Race Director
The single clutch autimated manuals of the 2000 s ferrari
, lamborghini and bmw were technicially inferior to dual clutch transmissions that followed especially in daily use. The single clutch automatic manuals were clumsey around town left to their own device and the clutch wear was rapid.
the wear and cost to maintain those automated manual transmission sports cars being mentioned as having a lower residual to the manuals are nightmares to maintain...
thats why the residuals of manual transmission versions of that era are higher.
, lamborghini and bmw were technicially inferior to dual clutch transmissions that followed especially in daily use. The single clutch automatic manuals were clumsey around town left to their own device and the clutch wear was rapid.
the wear and cost to maintain those automated manual transmission sports cars being mentioned as having a lower residual to the manuals are nightmares to maintain...
thats why the residuals of manual transmission versions of that era are higher.
Last edited by JerriVette; 09-10-2018 at 07:52 PM.
09-10-2018, 08:19 PM
#23
I would even guesstimate that 99% of that quoted 23% that bought a manual Corvette, would have bought the same Corvette had AUTOMATIC been the only option.
I would even venture to say that the REST of the industry has already figured this out, that no matter how loud the few manual hold-outs scream, really, only about 3-5% of the overall population in the United States knows how to operate a third pedal, and even that 3-5% tend to be of a much older demographic and this, will be irrelevant in 5-10 years.
And finally, out of that same 3-5% of the population that CAN operate a manual, a majority of them would actually prefer driving an auto.
Corvette manual sales is an outlier because 1) your typical owner’s age is 15-30 years older than your average populace due to the financial commitment it requires to acquire even just the base Corvette, 2) high performance nature of the car has a higher percentage of “enthusiast” that wants a manual, therefore a higher percentage of potential buyers know how to drive a stick shift and want to.
09-10-2018, 08:36 PM
#24
Safety Car
Bet you some bean counter had some marketing survey that shows Corvette Guy will buy a new Corvette REGARDLESS of whether or not a manual transmission is offered.
I would even guesstimate that 99% of that quoted 23% that bought a manual Corvette, would have bought the same Corvette had AUTOMATIC been the only option.
I would even venture to say that the REST of the industry has already figured this out, that no matter how loud the few manual hold-outs scream, really, only about 3-5% of the overall population in the United States knows how to operate a third pedal, and even that 3-5% tend to be of a much older demographic and this, will be irrelevant in 5-10 years.
And finally, out of that same 3-5% of the population that CAN operate a manual, a majority of them would actually prefer driving an auto.
Corvette manual sales is an outlier because 1) your typical owner’s age is 15-30 years older than your average populace due to the financial commitment it requires to acquire even just the base Corvette, 2) high performance nature of the car has a higher percentage of “enthusiast” that wants a manual, therefore a higher percentage of potential buyers know how to drive a stick shift and want to.
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09-10-2018, 09:10 PM
#25
Melting Slicks
GM is definitely not losing 20% of Corevette sales with an auto only M8. It is never a direct 1 to 1 loss ever. The new car is such a departure from the FE era that if GM gets it right it will be desired by many and quite of few of those will be buyers that never considered owning a Vette until the new ME came along. Will GM move just as many units as before? Absolutely. For the less than 1% of Corvette buyers that will actually go out and drop 2X on a manual Porsche? That's not the buyer GM is going to measure their success or failure of the car with.
Will a manual version possibly someday maybe be released? Of course it MIGHT. Anything is possible but the ME needs to be a success first and foremost based on its merits regardless of transmission.
Will a manual version possibly someday maybe be released? Of course it MIGHT. Anything is possible but the ME needs to be a success first and foremost based on its merits regardless of transmission.
Last edited by JDSKY; 09-10-2018 at 09:10 PM.
09-10-2018, 09:23 PM
#26
If GM would have offered a true dual clutch trans in the Corvette, similar to the one in my M4, I would have bought my GS with the DCT. They don’t. Their auto trans is a traditional auto and does not perform like a real dual clutch. Anyone who’s driven a true DCT knows what I mean. For that reason I bought my vette with an M7, and love it.
As for the c8 I’m fine with a DCT if it is in fact a true DCT and not a traditional Automatic.
As for the c8 I’m fine with a DCT if it is in fact a true DCT and not a traditional Automatic.
09-10-2018, 09:40 PM
#27
Le Mans Master
Bet you some bean counter had some marketing survey that shows Corvette Guy will buy a new Corvette REGARDLESS of whether or not a manual transmission is offered.
I would even guesstimate that 99% of that quoted 23% that bought a manual Corvette, would have bought the same Corvette had AUTOMATIC been the only option.
I would even venture to say that the REST of the industry has already figured this out, that no matter how loud the few manual hold-outs scream, really, only about 3-5% of the overall population in the United States knows how to operate a third pedal, and even that 3-5% tend to be of a much older demographic and this, will be irrelevant in 5-10 years.
And finally, out of that same 3-5% of the population that CAN operate a manual, a majority of them would actually prefer driving an auto.
Corvette manual sales is an outlier because 1) your typical owner’s age is 15-30 years older than your average populace due to the financial commitment it requires to acquire even just the base Corvette, 2) high performance nature of the car has a higher percentage of “enthusiast” that wants a manual, therefore a higher percentage of potential buyers know how to drive a stick shift and want to.
Nonetheless, I’ll believe it when I see it. If it does come to fruition, then I’m not losing any sleep and will simply move on to something else when in the market again.
I personally would never buy an automatic sports car regardless of its performance. Many don’t care, but there are a lot who do... certainly more than 1%.
09-10-2018, 09:51 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
If GM would have offered a true dual clutch trans in the Corvette, similar to the one in my M4, I would have bought my GS with the DCT. They don’t. Their auto trans is a traditional auto and does not perform like a real dual clutch. Anyone who’s driven a true DCT knows what I mean. For that reason I bought my vette with an M7, and love it.
As for the c8 I’m fine with a DCT if it is in fact a true DCT and not a traditional Automatic.
As for the c8 I’m fine with a DCT if it is in fact a true DCT and not a traditional Automatic.
Bottom line is both of those very excellent cars (911 and Huracan) with DCT's I am comparing my auto trans to were a bit more than 4X and 5X respectively the price. For that I am willing to give my Vette at least a tiny bit of slack in that department.
09-10-2018, 10:20 PM
#29
I drove multiple PDK 911's a real snoozefest on the road. On the track its a no brainer, on the road nothing like a manual shift.
09-10-2018, 11:35 PM
#30
Sure, and I remember roll-up windows, too. But since you're obviously a future-oriented kind of guy who does not wax nostalgic for the past and instead just makes fun of people who are not enamored with an auto-only corvette, I'm sure you will be just fine when cars all become self-driving, and it will be mandatory. It's just a matter of time.
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09-11-2018, 02:09 AM
#31
Melting Slicks
So, when and if the time comes to replace my 18 Grand Sport with the M-7 I will shop others, and if they still have a manual, they may well get the nod. I just think its more fun, and more engaging to drive a manual. Especially in a car I purchase for pleasure use.
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09-11-2018, 07:15 AM
#32
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Well the C7 runs to 2021 at least, and there still is a plan (at least as of now) to replace the car with another front engined car. But if the new mid-engined car sells well enough I can see GM cancelling that. GM cares about the money, and if they can sell 30,000 units of a mid-enigne car then they don't need the Corvette.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
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09-11-2018, 07:33 AM
#33
Le Mans Master
Full disclosure: The only automatic cars I've ever owned were the 3 Crown Vics (over the past 25 years) we use to pull the boat and my wife's current Honda Accord. I LOVE driving a 3 pedal car.That said, the kind of automatic trans that most likely will go into the C8 (assuming it's a rear mid-engine car as is being tested) will not be a torque converter auto, but a DCT or similar. It will be an automatic, clutch actuated, transmission. Will it be engaging in the same way as my C7 (or C5, or ....)? Nope. Will it be engaging just as well in different ways? Not having lived with a DCT, I expect it will.
Now, will I be able to afford it??? THAT'S the big question.
Have a good one,
Mike
09-11-2018, 07:41 AM
#34
Burning Brakes
Well the C7 runs to 2021 at least, and there still is a plan (at least as of now) to replace the car with another front engined car. But if the new mid-engined car sells well enough I can see GM cancelling that. GM cares about the money, and if they can sell 30,000 units of a mid-enigne car then they don't need the Corvette.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
Franky, I am not even really interested in the C8 when I see it in pics. Maybe it will grow on me, but I prefer the lines of a front engine design vs the mid engine designed body lines. I really hope they continue to offer both. Let the mid engine car start at $100k plus and just evolve the front engine model and keep it at a starting price under $60k. Otherwise, I will have to resort back to a Camaro SS and look how ridiculous the refreshed front end of that car looks now.
09-11-2018, 07:50 AM
#35
Team Owner
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
Well the C7 runs to 2021 at least, and there still is a plan (at least as of now) to replace the car with another front engined car. But if the new mid-engined car sells well enough I can see GM cancelling that. GM cares about the money, and if they can sell 30,000 units of a mid-enigne car then they don't need the Corvette.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
To me, if they kill the front engine car, kill the manual, and kill everthing about the car as it stands today then the car is dead. People may say the mid-engine is an advancement, but this is no different than replacing a Camaro with the Bearetta (a plan in the 80's) or For'd plan to kill the Mustnag and replace it with the Probe.
Corvette is V8, Manual , and is a Front Engine RWD car. I know 1953 and 1954 both did not have a V8 or a Manual, but when those two things were added in 1955, sales exploded and the car became what it is. I'd begrudgingly accept an I6 because the car originally had one, but other than that straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake.
I don't even like that the mid-engine car removes the transverse leaf springs.
As I've said elsewhere, GM is gambling, and they do that, just like every other biz that wants to stay in biz---you can't rest on what works from the past forever. But a biz can still make mistakes in gambling on the future---some end the biz, some become their future. And some they can correct and still go on.
But, I fully agree with this: "...straying from the successful formula started in 1954 is a mistake..."
Last edited by AORoads; 09-11-2018 at 07:51 AM.
09-11-2018, 08:08 AM
#36
Le Mans Master
My read----the C8 comes out without a manual for the first 2 years and to stimulate sales in year 3 offers the manual as a $1495 option.
Last edited by Corgidog1; 09-11-2018 at 08:12 AM.
09-11-2018, 08:21 AM
#37
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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This is a GOOD thing.
All the top tier sport cars in the mid 2000s that have completely gone away from full 3 pedal manuals, all the manual versions have SPIKED big time in value. A late 200x model BMW M whatever, manual Ferraris, manual Porsches, especially pre 996, manual Lambos, ALL are fetching values 5-20% HIGHER than their auto or automated manual counterparts.
Meanwhile it hasn't stopped or slowed down sales of sporty or sports cars in general (slow down in sport car sales has more to do with a ton of other factors, not the death of the manual) and those of us with M7 Corvettes will have the LAST of a long, LONG line of fine automobiles of its kind. I'd imagine 15 years from now, M7 C7s will be fetching quite a bit higher value than their automatic counterparts too.
Bring on AUTOMATIC only C8s.
All the top tier sport cars in the mid 2000s that have completely gone away from full 3 pedal manuals, all the manual versions have SPIKED big time in value. A late 200x model BMW M whatever, manual Ferraris, manual Porsches, especially pre 996, manual Lambos, ALL are fetching values 5-20% HIGHER than their auto or automated manual counterparts.
Meanwhile it hasn't stopped or slowed down sales of sporty or sports cars in general (slow down in sport car sales has more to do with a ton of other factors, not the death of the manual) and those of us with M7 Corvettes will have the LAST of a long, LONG line of fine automobiles of its kind. I'd imagine 15 years from now, M7 C7s will be fetching quite a bit higher value than their automatic counterparts too.
Bring on AUTOMATIC only C8s.
It will be a Tremic built Transaxle with efficient spur gears but dual concentric clutches that will have shifted into the next gear prior to one clutch disengaging while the other engages faster than the blink of an eye!
But it won't have a 3rd pedal like all modern Ferraris etc. I'll have to practice flipping my rev match paddles fast to get ready!
Anyone ready to pay top dollar for one of the last manual shift NA Vettes!
PS: Some can continue to "hope" but about a year ago Tadge about said for those manual lovers the C7 will no doubt be the last. It's been in print that Tremic will supply the C8 with a duel clutch transaxle. In fact a few years ago they bought a European company that had been building them for the that market. No way is Tremic going to build the few totally different transaxles with a 3rd pedal and shift stick for mostly us "old timers." We're lucky with only slightly over 20% of the C7's using a standard trans they still do!
Last edited by JerryU; 09-11-2018 at 08:34 AM.
09-11-2018, 09:22 AM
#39
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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^^
At the higher price of a Porsche with the std shift package that includes other light weight stuff, guess they can make them!
I recall the trans in my ‘93 Vette was a ZF. Don’t recall that price versus an automatic but my ‘88 Vette with the Doug Nash 4 speed with integrated electrically operated overdrive that could be activated with a button on the shift **** top in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th for my second 7 speed. The price for it and the automatic were identical!
Yep some of us would pay more, in my case ~$1000, for a 3rd pedal and shifter. The key is Temic’s design, manufacturing cost and the extra for GM to add a “real clutch,” 3rd pedal and manual shifter mechanism For the limited volume doubt it would be cost justified!
At the higher price of a Porsche with the std shift package that includes other light weight stuff, guess they can make them!I recall the trans in my ‘93 Vette was a ZF. Don’t recall that price versus an automatic but my ‘88 Vette with the Doug Nash 4 speed with integrated electrically operated overdrive that could be activated with a button on the shift **** top in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th for my second 7 speed. The price for it and the automatic were identical!
Yep some of us would pay more, in my case ~$1000, for a 3rd pedal and shifter. The key is Temic’s design, manufacturing cost and the extra for GM to add a “real clutch,” 3rd pedal and manual shifter mechanism For the limited volume doubt it would be cost justified!
Last edited by JerryU; 09-11-2018 at 09:31 AM.
09-11-2018, 10:06 AM
#40
Le Mans Master
BTW, I think one of the main reasons mid rear engine cars today are using DCT transmissions is due to the routing of the shift linkages. The clutch you can get away with via hydraulics, but there's no good way to connect the shift linkage to the transaxle. So the shift to electronic DCTs. Yeah, you could force a traditional manual, but IMO it wouldn't/won't work as well as the same system in a mid front engine setup.
Have a good one,
Mike
Have a good one,
Mike