Phatman1 nervous about purchase of 2019 C7
12-10-2018, 08:54 PM
#21
I too live in the greater Cincy area. I seemed to find better deals when I looked a bit further out of the area. For example, I found my C7 online at a dealer in Chicago that took super great care of me and offered me considerable savings. They also gave me a much better offer for my trade-in compared to what Herlinger offered me, so my wife and I packed up and made a day trip to Chicago and back to do the deal.
If you don't mind driving a bit to get one, there are some good dealers here that offer some great deals that would be worth checking out their inventory.
My wife wasn't too excited about me getting one either, but once she saw the car in person and rode in it, she now wants one for herself. So perhaps yours will do a 180 on you once she gets to experience it more. Keep us posted.
If you don't mind driving a bit to get one, there are some good dealers here that offer some great deals that would be worth checking out their inventory.
My wife wasn't too excited about me getting one either, but once she saw the car in person and rode in it, she now wants one for herself. So perhaps yours will do a 180 on you once she gets to experience it more. Keep us posted.
Last edited by lakemg; 12-10-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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Phatman1 (12-11-2018)
12-10-2018, 11:12 PM
#22
I have just read all the treads for my questions. I can't believe the response that I have been given. I want to thank each and everyone who replied and put my mind at ease about the "wheel/tire chatter". I haven't watched the videos yet but will after I send this reply. I will also check out the forum dealers to see if I can get a better deal..I have no problem traveling to get the best deal. Right now the deal appears to be in Miami Florida and it's cold in Ohio--hehe maybe a week or 2 trip just to buy a car!!!!!
Thanks to all and I'll let you all know how it goes. I see a test drive in my near future, probably this week.
Thanks to all and I'll let you all know how it goes. I see a test drive in my near future, probably this week.
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Rebel Yell (12-12-2018)
12-11-2018, 01:44 AM
#23
if you think that was wordy, wait until you read my dissertation on digressive braking technique for performance applications. That one is a REAL doozy with diagrams and graphs and all.
I type and explain for my own leisure. You all may take from it what you will. At the end of the day I simply enjoy the process of explaining, makes no difference to me whether ANYONE reads or gets it.
12-11-2018, 10:05 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
if you think that was wordy, wait until you read my dissertation on digressive braking technique for performance applications. That one is a REAL doozy with diagrams and graphs and all.
I type and explain for my own leisure. You all may take from it what you will. At the end of the day I simply enjoy the process of explaining, makes no difference to me whether ANYONE reads or gets it.
12-11-2018, 10:42 AM
#25
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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New to this forum: I have been impressed by the looks of the C7 Corvettes and I'm trying to convince my wife to let me buy one. I feel her breaking down.I have been doing online research on these cars and realistically I think I will just purchase a base model C7. I have no need to take it to the track so I most likely won't get the Grand Sport, although there are some features that would be pretty cool to have. I don't need a full fledged race car so I won't get the Z06.
I have digressed: I finally broke down and went to my local Chevy dealer to take a test drive. They brought the car from another lot 2 miles away and when I got into the vehicle the battery was dead. Once they figured out where the battery was located, a jump (after some trouble) got the car started. Okay so I'm ready to take my test drive. I had to back the car up and turn sharply because I was in the dealership parking lot and the front end started jumping and making sounds just like my truck does when in 4 wheel drive and you turn too sharply. Is this normal for the C7? It appears that this would create issues every time you had to maneuver in a parking lot. I have owned Chevrolet's in the past (Impala) for a company car and they have fallen apart at about 120k miles. Never have purchased a Chevy before so I'm nervous about spending that kind of money on a dream sports car only to have many failures. 2 questions: Does the C7 not like the sharp parking lot turns and I plan on keeping it as a daily driver will it last to 200k miles with regular maintenance?
I have digressed: I finally broke down and went to my local Chevy dealer to take a test drive. They brought the car from another lot 2 miles away and when I got into the vehicle the battery was dead. Once they figured out where the battery was located, a jump (after some trouble) got the car started. Okay so I'm ready to take my test drive. I had to back the car up and turn sharply because I was in the dealership parking lot and the front end started jumping and making sounds just like my truck does when in 4 wheel drive and you turn too sharply. Is this normal for the C7? It appears that this would create issues every time you had to maneuver in a parking lot. I have owned Chevrolet's in the past (Impala) for a company car and they have fallen apart at about 120k miles. Never have purchased a Chevy before so I'm nervous about spending that kind of money on a dream sports car only to have many failures. 2 questions: Does the C7 not like the sharp parking lot turns and I plan on keeping it as a daily driver will it last to 200k miles with regular maintenance?
The Ackerman compensation for the front wheel radius difference is needed when making a tight slow speed turn. Turns out car designers DON'T use full Ackerman geometry as it reduces the max lateral "g" acceleration in high speed turns (when the inside and outside tires are loaded differently.) However with "normal tires" with "normal slip angles" it's not needed as the tire tread surface moves to provide some of that compensation. This PDF shows that race car tire construction has very low slip angles and this read surface movement is not sufficient to compensate under some conditions. The OEM Michelin tires are more like a race cr. When they are cold, the Tread is hard and the sidewall even less compliant. As GM notes, it's even worse when wet which I have validated and as you can see in the pic below there must be traction to have the compensation occur.
In addition, the end of that PDF has links to about 30 Mods and about 10 information documents about the C7 I have made that may be of interest.
I got my 2014 C7 Z51 in October 2013, an early production. It was back to the dealer only once for a seatbelt software update. I do all my own oil changes. I sold it after 3 1/2 years in like new condition to buy my current Grand Sport. It almost 2 years the Grand Sport has been back to the dealer only twice. Once at 400 miles to get a Free alignment and about 6 months ago to get a MDC update! These have been the least trouble cars I have ever owned!
Good luck.
12-11-2018, 10:58 AM
#26
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Which is to say, simply, that Corvette engineers choose to optimize for high speed, high performance tire slip angles rather than low speed, low slip angle turns. The side effect is that while the Corvette will set lap records and be skid-pad king, because it optimizes the outside tire grip in sacrifice to additional chassis torque to rotate the car, it suffers tire chatter in slow turns because the outside tire's turning radius is smaller than the inside tire on turns (anti-Ackerman). If we all have a chance to drive open wheel formula cars on the street and in parking lots, I'm sure we'd all be complaining about the same thing (most open wheel formula race cars are setup with anti-Ackerman steering).
BUT it is the race car very low slip angles of the OEM Michelin where the issue lies! Folks report with winter or most all-season tires the "Chatter" as GM calls it does not occur or is significantly less! Therefor with the same Ackerman compensation geometry a typical street tire will not chatter significantly.I find it of interest that Michelin took the tire business from Goodyear who had it for years. With the same width tires I had on my C6 Z51 as my C7 Z51 the Michelin's provided significantly more max lateral acceleration. Granted there are other car reasons but the tires are a big part.
I recall on my C6 I had almost no chatter with the Goodyears even when it was 40 degrees I made a full lock turn after backing out of my garage to go down my driveway. With the Michelins I have almost no chatter when warm but when it gets to 40 to 45 F it chatters so bad I don't make a full lock turn! I turn the wheel less and make a "K" turn. Works for me as when I take the extra time I think about the max lateral "g" I can hit around the foundation at the end of my street when it's warm!
Last edited by JerryU; 12-11-2018 at 11:02 AM.
12-11-2018, 02:04 PM
#27
JerryU you hit the NAIL on the head. As usual your explanations and diagrams and PDFs do a 100x better job than my finger typing away at a keyboard (but I DO like the sound of my own keyboard clacking).
You know who ELSE complains about tire chatter incessantly on a message board? Porsche 911 owners. Some Porsche 911s come with exceedingly wide front MICHELIN Cup2 or Pilot Super Sport tires, and if you do a search for "Ackerman steering" you'll see threads come up on the various Corvette forums and...Porsche forums like Rennlist and 6Speed Online.
Really though, 99.9% of your daily driving in the Corvette (or for that matter, 99.99% of driving in a Porsche 911) it is beneficial to have pro-Ackerman steering because you will NEVER ever come across a significant amount of slip angle on tires. Not even when you're "carving them canyons." True, some slip angles are needed to turn the car, but it is unlikely you'll approach the peak of that graph JerryU posted on street applications. Most street driving, even spiritedly, uses maybe up to about 6/10th of that typical curve, at which point the cornering force and slip angles of a racing slick and ordinary tires are still relatively close.
The fact that GM chose to compromise the slow speed steering for high speed cornering force with performance tires, kinda shows you where these cars really belong.
By the way, you want to know another place where Ackerman steering is mentioned a lot? Go kart. Even if you're just doing in-door electric karts, you can FEEL how much the front tires chatter when you turn it slowly. Most indoor karts are set up for pro-Ackerman steering geometry because courses are relatively tight and low speed...There are more mechanical grip than power to overcome rotation.
Next time you go karting pay attention to the front steering when you turn and you can see the whole discussion in action.
You know who ELSE complains about tire chatter incessantly on a message board? Porsche 911 owners. Some Porsche 911s come with exceedingly wide front MICHELIN Cup2 or Pilot Super Sport tires, and if you do a search for "Ackerman steering" you'll see threads come up on the various Corvette forums and...Porsche forums like Rennlist and 6Speed Online.
Really though, 99.9% of your daily driving in the Corvette (or for that matter, 99.99% of driving in a Porsche 911) it is beneficial to have pro-Ackerman steering because you will NEVER ever come across a significant amount of slip angle on tires. Not even when you're "carving them canyons." True, some slip angles are needed to turn the car, but it is unlikely you'll approach the peak of that graph JerryU posted on street applications. Most street driving, even spiritedly, uses maybe up to about 6/10th of that typical curve, at which point the cornering force and slip angles of a racing slick and ordinary tires are still relatively close.
The fact that GM chose to compromise the slow speed steering for high speed cornering force with performance tires, kinda shows you where these cars really belong.
By the way, you want to know another place where Ackerman steering is mentioned a lot? Go kart. Even if you're just doing in-door electric karts, you can FEEL how much the front tires chatter when you turn it slowly. Most indoor karts are set up for pro-Ackerman steering geometry because courses are relatively tight and low speed...There are more mechanical grip than power to overcome rotation.
Next time you go karting pay attention to the front steering when you turn and you can see the whole discussion in action.
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JerryU (12-11-2018)
12-11-2018, 02:15 PM
#28
I have a feisty little 10 year old. She's smarter than your average kid, but she's 10. The other day, I was driving her around in the Grand Sport, when she asked why I keep moving that "stick" in the middle of the car.
5 hours later, spread across maybe 2 weeks, I explained to her how a manual transmission works. I went through various stages of going over in detail how to operate a clutch, how each gear multiplication helps propel the car forward, torque vs HP vs gearing, how each gear has limitations on the top speed it can achieve etc. Showed her while I'm driving the car how each and every point I was trying to make in practical application.
In the end she understood ONE thing. I move the stick in the middle of the car because that's how you're suppose to drive a manual transmission equipped car, that the faster you go the higher up you need to be in gear. We ended our conversation on that.
Again, grant you. She's a smart kid. But nothing I explained stuck. Nothing I explained made sense. But I chose to explain it to her because SOMEDAY, when she's old enough to learn how to drive a car, she WILL learn it driving one of my 2 manual equipped cars. And she doesn't understand it now, but she WILL when she's old enough to practice it. She's not equipped to understand it now but she will.
And that's why a lot of my explanations are long winded. Sure it's easy to just say "this is how it works." Some people might even understand it better that way. But eventually when you do understand the nuances and the details, that understanding is worth a lot more than "this is how it works."
Maybe it's just a side effect of having a 10 year old kid that wants to know EVERYTHING. So I explain everything. In detail.
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JerryU (12-11-2018)
12-11-2018, 03:15 PM
#29
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Again, grant you. She's a smart kid. But nothing I explained stuck. Nothing I explained made sense.
And that's why a lot of my explanations are long winded. Sure it's easy to just say "this is how it works." Some people might even understand it better that way. But eventually when you do understand the nuances and the details, that understanding is worth a lot more than "this is how it works."
Maybe it's just a side effect of having a 10 year old kid that wants to know EVERYTHING. So I explain everything. In detail.
I'm the same way! Yep ask me what time it is and I'll tell you how a watch is made. I'm not as bad as many I have worked with and will usually tell you the time first then proceed about the workings of the watch! But I write for myself as well as whoever I'm explaining things to! I have fun doing it as obviously you do as well.On the Forum I do understand many will just roll their eyes
and move on BUT some of the silent majority, who are usually >10X the vocal minority who post on a Thread do read! (This Thread, at the time of this edit, is an example: ~30 posters and ~1600 mostly silent majority who visited.) Makes you feel good when you get a PM thanking you for a post or PDF!Keep those fingers going! Sounds like your daughter might wind up being an engineer or scientist! Can't go wrong!
Last edited by JerryU; 12-12-2018 at 08:05 AM.
12-11-2018, 04:39 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Funny you say that.
I have a feisty little 10 year old. She's smarter than your average kid, but she's 10. The other day, I was driving her around in the Grand Sport, when she asked why I keep moving that "stick" in the middle of the car.
5 hours later, spread across maybe 2 weeks, I explained to her how a manual transmission works. I went through various stages of going over in detail how to operate a clutch, how each gear multiplication helps propel the car forward, torque vs HP vs gearing, how each gear has limitations on the top speed it can achieve etc. Showed her while I'm driving the car how each and every point I was trying to make in practical application.
In the end she understood ONE thing. I move the stick in the middle of the car because that's how you're suppose to drive a manual transmission equipped car, that the faster you go the higher up you need to be in gear. We ended our conversation on that.
Again, grant you. She's a smart kid. But nothing I explained stuck. Nothing I explained made sense. But I chose to explain it to her because SOMEDAY, when she's old enough to learn how to drive a car, she WILL learn it driving one of my 2 manual equipped cars. And she doesn't understand it now, but she WILL when she's old enough to practice it. She's not equipped to understand it now but she will.
And that's why a lot of my explanations are long winded. Sure it's easy to just say "this is how it works." Some people might even understand it better that way. But eventually when you do understand the nuances and the details, that understanding is worth a lot more than "this is how it works."
Maybe it's just a side effect of having a 10 year old kid that wants to know EVERYTHING. So I explain everything. In detail.
I have a feisty little 10 year old. She's smarter than your average kid, but she's 10. The other day, I was driving her around in the Grand Sport, when she asked why I keep moving that "stick" in the middle of the car.
5 hours later, spread across maybe 2 weeks, I explained to her how a manual transmission works. I went through various stages of going over in detail how to operate a clutch, how each gear multiplication helps propel the car forward, torque vs HP vs gearing, how each gear has limitations on the top speed it can achieve etc. Showed her while I'm driving the car how each and every point I was trying to make in practical application.
In the end she understood ONE thing. I move the stick in the middle of the car because that's how you're suppose to drive a manual transmission equipped car, that the faster you go the higher up you need to be in gear. We ended our conversation on that.
Again, grant you. She's a smart kid. But nothing I explained stuck. Nothing I explained made sense. But I chose to explain it to her because SOMEDAY, when she's old enough to learn how to drive a car, she WILL learn it driving one of my 2 manual equipped cars. And she doesn't understand it now, but she WILL when she's old enough to practice it. She's not equipped to understand it now but she will.
And that's why a lot of my explanations are long winded. Sure it's easy to just say "this is how it works." Some people might even understand it better that way. But eventually when you do understand the nuances and the details, that understanding is worth a lot more than "this is how it works."
Maybe it's just a side effect of having a 10 year old kid that wants to know EVERYTHING. So I explain everything. In detail.
i was originally responding to your statement that —it makes no difference to you if anyone reads or gets it.
Last edited by Corgidog1; 12-11-2018 at 04:45 PM.
12-11-2018, 04:57 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
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As you already see that's a normal thing with the tires. So, I'll try to help you with the wife. Tell her now is the time to buy as GM has employee pricing on the '19 Vettes, and some dealers may price them a bit lower. And, as a bonus all the members here on the forum say you can buy one if you want. That right there should do the trick.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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Rebel Yell (12-12-2018)
12-11-2018, 08:40 PM
#33
Take her down to Bowling Green, KY to the Corvette Museum. She'll get a kick out of seeing folks picking up their new vette in the delivery area. My wife really enjoyed it and wants to order one with the museum delivery just for the experience...then I told her to snap back into reality. We also met quite a few super nice people who shared the same Corvette passion. It's like you're all family down there. Not sure when the plant tours open again, but that's a neat experience. Can't wait to tour the plant now that it has been updated.
Last edited by lakemg; 12-12-2018 at 10:19 PM.
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Rebel Yell (12-12-2018)
12-11-2018, 09:46 PM
#34
Actually we have been talking about doing that but wanted to travel down on the Harley and that isn't going to happen this time of year. I hate winter!!!! Maybe I'll look into that before the end of the year -- thanks.
12-12-2018, 12:12 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
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Are you going to take your wife on the test drive and purchase process? If she's up for it, that may help her feel more involved. And it might bring her more over to your side...or not.
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Rebel Yell (12-12-2018)
12-12-2018, 03:51 AM
#36
They hop. Forward OR in reverse. Doesn't have to be a locked turn of the steering wheel, either. I'm not complaining. Just stating fact.
.Not sure why you're not noticing since we're at the
same temperature geographic location. That may be it. Some don't notice it.
12-12-2018, 02:53 PM
#37
If I can get her to go that would be great. Trying to get her to say yes and get all in. Our track record would indicate if I can get her on a test drive we always purchase.
12-12-2018, 03:02 PM
#38
Your non-wheel hopping may be the result of 18"X19" wheels. Do you have them?
12-12-2018, 04:01 PM
#39
I haven't purchased the car yet was beginning a test drive when I thought something was wrong and started to research what was going on. Still in the research mode as well as trying to convince my wife we should do this.
