Break-in period
02-03-2019, 06:31 PM
#21
Exactly
rings will seat just fine. valve springs will be fine. engine will not blow because low oil pressure hahaha! if you end up with a spun bearing or whatever it would have happened anyway, not because of a second at 5000 rpm under load.That being said i try to stay under the 4500 redline during the first 500. its also the drivetrain that needs "break-in" time.
02-03-2019, 06:58 PM
#22
Instructor
One of the reasons I bought from the local dealer was that he had a 2014 Z51 convertible on the lot for an all-day test drive. I showed up in my Miata, he chatted (quizzed) me for 20 minutes, then took me out to the car. He showed me the colored rings around the tach and had the car idle for 5 minutes so I could see how the car began to warm up. Great test drive; I placed a deposit and ordered a new GS. Scrupulous compliance with the rev limit through 500 miles. Still scrupulous about low revs until the oil temperature is high enough.
02-03-2019, 11:19 PM
#23
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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^^^
FWIW, that yellow ring continues to define the recommended rpm to shift. There is a 4 lane divided highway at the end of my street. I use the rings and the small DOTS of shift lights on the HUD tacmometer that appear when you are getting close to the max recommended shift speed to "short shift" as I accelerate and merge into traffic. After the 500 mile break-in that max rpm is based on oil temp and increases as the temp increases.
FWIW, that yellow ring continues to define the recommended rpm to shift. There is a 4 lane divided highway at the end of my street. I use the rings and the small DOTS of shift lights on the HUD tacmometer that appear when you are getting close to the max recommended shift speed to "short shift" as I accelerate and merge into traffic. After the 500 mile break-in that max rpm is based on oil temp and increases as the temp increases.
Last edited by JerryU; 02-03-2019 at 11:28 PM.
02-04-2019, 12:37 AM
#24
Not sure that it's not based on coolant temperature. It takes its time incrementally disappearing from the tachometer.
02-04-2019, 07:07 AM
#25
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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^^
Could be but I have oil temp showing in my elective small gauge so I see that temp increasing before the yellow is all gone.
Could be but I have oil temp showing in my elective small gauge so I see that temp increasing before the yellow is all gone.
Last edited by JerryU; 02-04-2019 at 07:08 AM.
02-20-2019, 10:01 PM
#26
Formula 1
Break in is like one of those coffee conversations, like which motor oil is the best. I recall being at a Corvette high performance driving school, some corvettes were brand new and they were hammered to red line. Seemly no I’ll affect as there were others there with 10K miles and always driven hard from day one.
My thought the break is more for safety, getting use to the car, etc. I’ve personally broke in hard when drive train is warm, and varies speeds at higher RPM, no excessive short trips, viewed that to work well.
My thought the break is more for safety, getting use to the car, etc. I’ve personally broke in hard when drive train is warm, and varies speeds at higher RPM, no excessive short trips, viewed that to work well.
02-21-2019, 06:21 AM
#27
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Break in is like one of those coffee conversations, like which motor oil is the best. I recall being at a Corvette high performance driving school, some corvettes were brand new and they were hammered to red line. Seemly no I’ll affect as there were others there with 10K miles and always driven hard from day one.
My thought the break is more for safety, getting use to the car, etc. I’ve personally broke in hard when drive train is warm, and varies speeds at higher RPM, no excessive short trips, viewed that to work well.
My thought the break is more for safety, getting use to the car, etc. I’ve personally broke in hard when drive train is warm, and varies speeds at higher RPM, no excessive short trips, viewed that to work well.
First it's more than the engine that needs to break-in! The dif and trans gears also need time to eliminate "hot spots" that are inevitable on meshing gears. That must be done with cool fluid. An example, when we were a sponsor of the Petty Team in the early days they were still building their own engines in Level Cross. I would visit with the fellow who was responsible for assembly. Recall when they started, like most, to rent engines when the restrictor plate engines were different as were road course versus ovals etc they were using one of their engine dyno's to slowly break in rear ends! That assured longer life and less hp loss.
The web info on, "Why it's better to seat rings with aggressive initial operation," relates to racing motorcycle and other racing engines that they break in on dyno's. Turns out ring seating is very dependent on the surface finish hone used on those, versus stock engines that are expected to last many miles. Prostock Drag Race engines use a finish hone significantly different than a passenger car. They could care less about long term life as that is only a few races! A extra hp for those races is there only concern.
Reminded of Dale Inman's (the Petty Crew Chief when we started as a minor sponsor) response to my question about the 000 or some such name oil weight they were using to gain hp. I asked if that was sufficient for wear. He said, it's good enough for the 500 miles we need!
If the C7 driving schools don't take the time to break in the cars I can understand when they are sold why there is no warranty! (That and other reasons!)
Last edited by JerryU; 02-21-2019 at 06:32 AM.
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Billy346 (02-21-2019)
02-21-2019, 10:11 AM
#28
Race Director
Please provide some proof to this statement. Driving a car "extremely hard" is not a recipe for long life of any of the drivetrain components. Ask anyone who races a car on a regular basis.
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Rayland (03-12-2019)
02-21-2019, 10:19 AM
#29
Race Director
Break-in period
No, but seriously, the manufacturer and your goals are NOT aligned with regard to break in. Their goal is for you to baby the car and get it past the warranty period, regardless of how much power you lose from improper breakin, or how much oil you lose from it blowing past the rings due to them not being seated properly.
This guy's goal and yours are in alignment, however...
http://mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
What's The Best Way To Break-In A New Engine ??
The Short Answer: Run it Hard !
Why ??
Nowadays, the piston ring seal is really what the break in process is all about. Contrary to popular belief, piston rings don't seal the combustion pressure by spring tension. Ring tension is necessary only to "scrape" the oil to prevent it from entering the combustion chamber.
If you think about it, the ring exerts maybe 5-10 lbs of spring tension against the cylinder wall ...
How can such a small amount of spring tension seal against thousands of
PSI (Pounds Per Square Inch) of combustion pressure ??
Of course it can't.
How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??
From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into
the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.
The Problem With "Easy Break In" ...
The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.
There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!
If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again.
Fortunately, most new sportbike owners can't resist the urge to "open it up" once or twice,
which is why more engines don't have this problem !!
An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!
The Short Answer: Run it Hard !
Why ??
Nowadays, the piston ring seal is really what the break in process is all about. Contrary to popular belief, piston rings don't seal the combustion pressure by spring tension. Ring tension is necessary only to "scrape" the oil to prevent it from entering the combustion chamber.
If you think about it, the ring exerts maybe 5-10 lbs of spring tension against the cylinder wall ...
How can such a small amount of spring tension seal against thousands of
PSI (Pounds Per Square Inch) of combustion pressure ??
Of course it can't.
How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ??
From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into
the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible.
The Problem With "Easy Break In" ...
The honed crosshatch pattern in the cylinder bore acts like a file to allow the rings to wear. The rings quickly wear down the "peaks" of this roughness, regardless of how hard the engine is run.
There's a very small window of opportunity to get the rings to seal really well ... the first 20 miles !!
If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again.
Fortunately, most new sportbike owners can't resist the urge to "open it up" once or twice,
which is why more engines don't have this problem !!
An additional factor that you may not have realized, is that the person at the dealership who set up your bike probably blasted your brand new bike pretty hard on the "test run". So, without realizing it, that adrenaline crazed set - up mechanic actually did you a huge favor !!
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cornelius967 (09-09-2019)
02-21-2019, 12:28 PM
#30
Race Director
^^^ motorcycle engines and automobile engines are very different animals though...
02-21-2019, 12:32 PM
#31
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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Great recent article in one of the car mags about the type of hone surface used for NHRA Prostock engines (IMO probably the most sophisticated engines next to F1 also has pushrods!) Currently rules limit the NA 500 cid engines to 10,500 rpm as they were reaching 12,000. They are achieving 1500+ hp with no power adders! The article showed the difference in the finished hone used to get max power, all hey care about.
A race engine builder also said you need to seat the rings quickly as after the first few dyno pulls you missed your chance. He also said you can't use synthetic oil, which the C7 has from the factory.
SIDE BAR:
The Following is Chevy’s Break-in Procedures for the ZZ502 in my Street Rod, which I followed.
Fill with 5W30 motor oil (non-synthetic) to the recommended oil fill level on the dipstick (fun story as the supplied dip stick didn't fit with my headers- had to measure and fit my Nylon aftermarket Lokar dip stick. NO VOLUME estimate mentioned)
Use a 1/2" dill motor, rotating the engine oil priming tool clockwise for three minutes. (supplied with the unassembled crate motor.)
Set the ignition timing to 10º before top dead center (BTDC) at 650 rpm with the vacuum advance line to the distributor disconnected and plugged. This setting will produce 32º of total advance at wide-open throttle (WOT).
The engine should be driven at varying loads and conditions for the first 30 miles or one hour without wide open throttle (WOT) or sustained high RPM accelerations.
Run five or six medium throttle (50%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in gear (FWIW I tried to do that during break-in with my C7 as with my M7 that does produce a high vacuum in the intake and pulls some oil up past the rings.)
Run two or three hard throttle (WOT 100%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in gear. Change the oil and filter. (That same info is given by a piston ring manufacturer and it ALSO SAYS USE WOT A FEW TIMES BUT DO NOT TO EXCEED 4000 RPM.
Replace with 5W30 motor oil (not synthetic.)
Drive the next 500 miles under normal conditions or 12 to 15 engine hours. Do not run the engine at its maximum rated engine speed. Also, do not expose the engine to extended periods of high load.
Change the oil and filter. Do not use synthetic oil for break-in. It would be suitable to use synthetic motor oil after the second recommended oil change and mileage accumulation.
Note the LT1/4/5 come with a cylinder hone suitable for the “full synthetic oil factory fill (whatever that is!) I’ll take the advice of GM engineers!
Last edited by JerryU; 02-21-2019 at 01:10 PM.
02-21-2019, 03:17 PM
#33
Race Director
Not with regards to piston sealing, but keep in mind that a motorcycle engine rarely sees the kind of high mileage numbers of an automotive engine. So they don't need their engines to last 200,000 miles, so I'd take the advice from "motoman" with a grain of salt.
Think about it this way. How many engines out there get broken in with the "motoman" method? Very few. But yet everyone knows somebody with a car (of many different makes and models) with a ridiculous amount of mileage on it (I know a guy with an old Accord that has over 600,000 miles on the original engine) So his method clearly isn't necessary to get long life out of your engine.
What about this nugget of info from motoman:
No solution but to rehone the cylinders and start over? What?? Do you think grandma is having to do that with her new car that has never seen the redline once? I've never heard of anyone needing to rebuild their engine because they broke it in gently. Not one.
Think about it this way. How many engines out there get broken in with the "motoman" method? Very few. But yet everyone knows somebody with a car (of many different makes and models) with a ridiculous amount of mileage on it (I know a guy with an old Accord that has over 600,000 miles on the original engine) So his method clearly isn't necessary to get long life out of your engine.
What about this nugget of info from motoman:
If the rings aren't forced against the walls soon enough, they'll use up the roughness before they fully seat. Once that happens there is no solution but to re hone the cylinders, install new rings and start over again.
No solution but to rehone the cylinders and start over? What?? Do you think grandma is having to do that with her new car that has never seen the redline once? I've never heard of anyone needing to rebuild their engine because they broke it in gently. Not one.
Last edited by Patman; 02-21-2019 at 03:19 PM.
02-21-2019, 06:07 PM
#34
Race Director
Not with regards to piston sealing, but keep in mind that a motorcycle engine rarely sees the kind of high mileage numbers of an automotive engine. So they don't need their engines to last 200,000 miles, so I'd take the advice from "motoman" with a grain of salt.
Think about it this way. How many engines out there get broken in with the "motoman" method? Very few. But yet everyone knows somebody with a car (of many different makes and models) with a ridiculous amount of mileage on it (I know a guy with an old Accord that has over 600,000 miles on the original engine) So his method clearly isn't necessary to get long life out of your engine.
What about this nugget of info from motoman:
No solution but to rehone the cylinders and start over? What?? Do you think grandma is having to do that with her new car that has never seen the redline once? I've never heard of anyone needing to rebuild their engine because they broke it in gently. Not one.
Think about it this way. How many engines out there get broken in with the "motoman" method? Very few. But yet everyone knows somebody with a car (of many different makes and models) with a ridiculous amount of mileage on it (I know a guy with an old Accord that has over 600,000 miles on the original engine) So his method clearly isn't necessary to get long life out of your engine.
What about this nugget of info from motoman:
No solution but to rehone the cylinders and start over? What?? Do you think grandma is having to do that with her new car that has never seen the redline once? I've never heard of anyone needing to rebuild their engine because they broke it in gently. Not one.
It all goes to back to the competing interests between a manufacturer and a consumer. A manufacturer just wants it to run without issue until the warranty expires. While the consumer wants all the power the engine can provide and doesn't want oil leaking past the rings.
02-21-2019, 09:14 PM
#35
Race Director
But it seems this guy is making it seem like if you don't break it in hard, the engine will burn oil and won't make as much power. That's also not the case. As evidenced by the break in poll on here, a huge majority of C7 owners here did not drive their cars hard during break in, but there are also very few reports of people burning oil with these cars too. So it's a non issue, you do not need to break in these engines hard for them to be powerful or to avoid oil consumption. I know it's early in my engine's life at only 9500 miles but I broke mine in gently and mine uses no oil and runs very strong (best 0-60 is 3.8 seconds, so it's definitely not lacking in power, all 455 horses are present and accounted for)
03-11-2019, 11:09 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Read in the user manual that you dont need to change oil at 500 miles for a base stingray ? Is that correct? I believe its better to change the oil at 500 miles irrespective , will dealer do it?
03-11-2019, 11:40 PM
#37
E-Ray, 3LZ, ZER, LIFT
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^^^
1st. There is no such thing as break-in oil. All Vettes are filled with Mobil 1 like you can buy.
2nd. When I got my September 2013 built C7 Z51 there was no "change oil at 500 miles." That bulletin did not come out until November 2014! The reason had NOTHING to do with particles in the oil etc etc. It was for one reason as stated in that Bulletin: It was found that silicon from curing seals MIGH be depleting the ANTIFOAM AGENTS that are in all engine oils. IF THE ENGINE WAS OPERATED AT SUSTAINED HIGH SPEEDS oil foam could form and in a DRY SUMP ONLY could "burp" with the air from the dry sump tank to the air intake through a hose there for the purpose of "burping air." (Note if you are going to pump all oil from the pan you have to pump lots of air.) That oil foam COULD drain down in the air intake tube to the air filer and DRIP ON THE GROUND.
3rd. I changed my own oil at ~1500 miles because I thought it was a good idea. At that time we were getting 4 free oil changes in two years BUT many delars would not change oil free until the OLM said change, which in my case would have been about one year. Lots of posts with some dealers saying they would not chagne unless the OLM said less than 20% life left. They were concerned that GM would not honor their reimbursement.
4th Don't believe GM reimburses the dealer for a none dry sump or it will be considered one of the two you get FREE.
NOTE: From my observation of Forum posts from 2013 to now, it would appear there are many folks with dry sumps reporting oil dripping from the air filter from dealers overfilling dry sumps than ever reported on the Forum from operating the engine at sustained high speed. IF you are going to have the oil chaged by a dealer (I do all my own) be sure it's not overfilled. Best way with t dry sump, IMO, is what some people do ask to have 9 quarts only installed and give you the 10th quart. If you don't do that then as a minimum, run your car at idle at the dealer for enough time to get the oil hot (~10 minutes) then check the oil level. If over the MAX fill line make the dealer remove it! Read the Owner's Manual that is what it says! Follow the owner's manual re checking oil level. i..e. Wait 5 minutes after shutting the car off (so oil can drain down from the baffles in the dry sump tank) BUT not more than 10 minutes or an excess amount of oil will drain back to the oil pan from the tank and you'll get a false low reading.
If you believe it should be changed- do it! I did at 1500 miles BUT did it on my own as I have done with every oil change. If the dealer won't do it or says it will be one of the 2 you get free so be it as you said you believe it's better to do. That is NOT what GM says. The LT1 is no different than any other new engine where GM says change when the OLM says OR in dry sump Corvettes 500iles for reasons as I outline having nothing to do with oil issues. However read my post #31 on what it said to do with my 502 cid engine in my street rod, change several times during the initial break-in!
Your car, your money, do what makes you happy!
1st. There is no such thing as break-in oil. All Vettes are filled with Mobil 1 like you can buy.
2nd. When I got my September 2013 built C7 Z51 there was no "change oil at 500 miles." That bulletin did not come out until November 2014! The reason had NOTHING to do with particles in the oil etc etc. It was for one reason as stated in that Bulletin: It was found that silicon from curing seals MIGH be depleting the ANTIFOAM AGENTS that are in all engine oils. IF THE ENGINE WAS OPERATED AT SUSTAINED HIGH SPEEDS oil foam could form and in a DRY SUMP ONLY could "burp" with the air from the dry sump tank to the air intake through a hose there for the purpose of "burping air." (Note if you are going to pump all oil from the pan you have to pump lots of air.) That oil foam COULD drain down in the air intake tube to the air filer and DRIP ON THE GROUND.
3rd. I changed my own oil at ~1500 miles because I thought it was a good idea. At that time we were getting 4 free oil changes in two years BUT many delars would not change oil free until the OLM said change, which in my case would have been about one year. Lots of posts with some dealers saying they would not chagne unless the OLM said less than 20% life left. They were concerned that GM would not honor their reimbursement.
4th Don't believe GM reimburses the dealer for a none dry sump or it will be considered one of the two you get FREE.
NOTE: From my observation of Forum posts from 2013 to now, it would appear there are many folks with dry sumps reporting oil dripping from the air filter from dealers overfilling dry sumps than ever reported on the Forum from operating the engine at sustained high speed. IF you are going to have the oil chaged by a dealer (I do all my own) be sure it's not overfilled. Best way with t dry sump, IMO, is what some people do ask to have 9 quarts only installed and give you the 10th quart. If you don't do that then as a minimum, run your car at idle at the dealer for enough time to get the oil hot (~10 minutes) then check the oil level. If over the MAX fill line make the dealer remove it! Read the Owner's Manual that is what it says! Follow the owner's manual re checking oil level. i..e. Wait 5 minutes after shutting the car off (so oil can drain down from the baffles in the dry sump tank) BUT not more than 10 minutes or an excess amount of oil will drain back to the oil pan from the tank and you'll get a false low reading.
If you believe it should be changed- do it! I did at 1500 miles BUT did it on my own as I have done with every oil change. If the dealer won't do it or says it will be one of the 2 you get free so be it as you said you believe it's better to do. That is NOT what GM says. The LT1 is no different than any other new engine where GM says change when the OLM says OR in dry sump Corvettes 500iles for reasons as I outline having nothing to do with oil issues. However read my post #31 on what it said to do with my 502 cid engine in my street rod, change several times during the initial break-in!
Your car, your money, do what makes you happy!
Last edited by JerryU; 03-11-2019 at 11:49 PM.
03-11-2019, 11:42 PM
#38
Race Director
I still think it's a good idea to do an early oil change on a wet sump car too though. I did my first oil change on my wet sump LT1 at 1100 miles, and sent the oil out for analysis and it had 1% fuel in it and had thinned out to a 5w20 already. I certainly wouldn't have wanted that oil running around in my engine for 5 or 6000 miles! (which is how long it would have been there if I had waited for the OLM to count down to zero to do that first change)
03-11-2019, 11:43 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
The 500 mile stipulation is for Dry Sump engines, not the base Stingray. Having said that, some folks with the base Stingray like to go “old school” and still like to get an oil change early in the break in period.