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The reason there are so many incidents of wrong way drivers in Phoenix has some to do with the entrance ramp designs. Phoenix uses the "diamond" entrance/exit design rather than the "cloverleaf" design.
With a diamond design (which saves land, and is chosen where cities are already built up) the driver has to chose either the left lane or the right lane to enter an expressway depending on the direction they wish to travel on the expressway.
The mistakes are made on the left turn lane (but can be made from the right hand turn as well). In the image above, if you were traveling on the road, left to right and you wanted to drive up the vertical expressway, you would enter in the left lane AFTER crossing over the expressway. Here is where the mistake is made (and the exact mistake this Corvette driver made.) Instead of turning left AFTER the expressway, he turned left BEFORE he crossed over. This put him on the Northbound EXIT ramp, so he ended up on the northbound side going southbound. Make it 1:30 in the morning after drinking all night and this isn't hard to do.
Many other cities use the cloverleaf design. Here, you always enter the expressway with a right hand turn. Never a left. It is almost impossible to enter on the wrong side in a cloverleaf. You might chose the wrong ramp and not going in the direction you want, but at least you won't be one the wrong side of the expressway.
The only way to end up on the wrong side of the expressway in a cloverleaf design is if you were already driving on the wrong side of the street before you entered. Cloverleafs take up significantly more real estate to build.
Last edited by BlindSpot; Nov 5, 2019 at 09:28 PM.
The reason there are so many incidents of wrong way drivers in Phoenix has some to do with the entrance ramp designs. Phoenix uses the "diamond" entrance/exit design rather than the "cloverleaf" design.
With a diamond design (which saves land, and is chosen where cities are already built up) the driver has to chose either the left lane or the right lane to enter an expressway depending on the direction they wish to travel on the expressway.
The mistakes are made on the left turn lane (but can be made from the right hand turn as well). In the image above, if you were traveling on the road, left to right and you wanted to drive up the vertical expressway, you would enter in the left lane AFTER crossing over the expressway. Here is where the mistake is made (and the exact mistake this Corvette driver made.) Instead of turning left AFTER the expressway, he turned left BEFORE he crossed over. This put him on the Northbound EXIT ramp, so he ended up on the northbound side going southbound. Make it 1:30 in the morning after drinking all night and this isn't hard to do.
Many other cities use the cloverleaf design. Here, you always enter the expressway with a right hand turn. Never a left. It is almost impossible to enter on the wrong side in a cloverleaf. You might chose the wrong ramp and not going in the direction you want, but at least you won't be one the wrong side of the expressway.
The only way to end up on the wrong side of the expressway in a cloverleaf design is if you were already driving on the wrong side of the street before you entered. Cloverleafs take up significantly more real estate to build.
The clover leaf leads to a mess and accidents with cars trying exit while cars are trying to merge onto the highway and causes slow moving traffic on both the highway and the entrance ramp that diamond design looks complicated but with the right signs should work ok
A lot depends on your local TV news. I suspect that they are catering to elderly viewers who already are sure that it's a dangerous world out there.
My local TV news ain't doing anything. I don't have a cable subscription, remember? This is from Google News, not the local TV news. I guess it's possible that Google's algorithm is saying "Well only old farts care about the local news...".
The reason there are so many incidents of wrong way drivers in Phoenix has some to do with the entrance ramp designs. Phoenix uses the "diamond" entrance/exit design rather than the "cloverleaf" design.
With a diamond design (which saves land, and is chosen where cities are already built up) the driver has to chose either the left lane or the right lane to enter an expressway depending on the direction they wish to travel on the expressway.
These are indeed rare - not unheard of but rare. And besides, if this supposedly saves land well then we don't really need to save land out here. There is plenty of it!
The mistakes are made on the left turn lane (but can be made from the right hand turn as well). In the image above, if you were traveling on the road, left to right and you wanted to drive up the vertical expressway, you would enter in the left lane AFTER crossing over the expressway. Here is where the mistake is made (and the exact mistake this Corvette driver made.) Instead of turning left AFTER the expressway, he turned left BEFORE he crossed over. This put him on the Northbound EXIT ramp, so he ended up on the northbound side going southbound. Make it 1:30 in the morning after drinking all night and this isn't hard to do.
That may be in this particular case, but as U said the above design is pretty rare around here and I also occasionally look through the local stories about wrong-way drivers and where (typically on I-10) they occur and they're usually nowhere neat an exchange like that.
Many other cities use the cloverleaf design. Here, you always enter the expressway with a right hand turn. Never a left. It is almost impossible to enter on the wrong side in a cloverleaf. You might chose the wrong ramp and not going in the direction you want, but at least you won't be one the wrong side of the expressway.
[img]https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/600x404/cloverleaf_2f8405454e54dbb69d54c90712f6b 6be54a50b5a.jpg
The only way to end up on the wrong side of the expressway in a cloverleaf design is if you were already driving on the wrong side of the street before you entered. Cloverleafs take up significantly more real estate to build.
Funny you say that considering this cloverleafs is pretty much standard design in New Jersey where they usually don't have much land especially when compared to Arizona. I think cloverleafs are a bit of overkill too. Done right, it's perfectly find to have left-hand exits. California has a lot of these without much issue.
Where are these diamond crossover entrances depicted above in Phoenix? I live on the east valley and I am not sure I have ever seen one.
This is the smallest slice I could take just along the 60 in Mesa. These are essentially every expressway ramp design in the entire metro area.
At each of these intersections, you will enter the expressway from the right hand lane to go one direction or the left hand lane to go in the other direction.
If you are traveling north on 87 and want to go west on 60 there will be a stoplight at 1, then you will proceed to a second stoplight at two. This is your lefthand turn onto 60 West. The drunk at 2:00 am, sees the cue up sign for the 60 West, but turns left at the first stop light at 1. This puts him/her on the exit ramp from the 60 East. They are now traveling westbound in the eastbound lane.
Same thing can happen on the right hand turn to go East on 60. The entrance ramp is at 1 the first stoplight, but if the drunk goes through the first light then turns right at the second light, they would now be going onto 60 east in the westbound lanes.
Keep in mind, the drunk doesn't see all those red WRONG WAY signs the state is making bigger and bigger. They also fail to see the thousands of red lane reflectors as they travel in the wrong direction. This is mostly a DUI issue, far more than some senior out at 2 am and getting confused while sober.
You cannot make these two mistakes on a cloverleaf design.
Last edited by BlindSpot; Nov 7, 2019 at 06:24 AM.
This is the smallest slice I could take just along the 60 in Mesa. These are essentially every expressway ramp design in the entire metro area.
And none of those are:
Which is what SingleTrackMinded was asking about. Can't get more off base than that!
At each of these intersections, you will enter the expressway from the right hand lane to go one direction or the left hand lane to go in the other direction.
Yes and there's nothing wrong with that. We were not talking about this style of entrance to a highway. In fact, it was you that said:
The reason there are so many incidents of wrong way drivers in Phoenix has some to do with the entrance ramp designs. Phoenix uses the "diamond" entrance/exit design rather than the "cloverleaf" design.
That's what he and I were asking - where are these? And you point out several of them that do not match this "diamond" design.
If you are traveling north on 87 and want to go west on 60 there will be a stoplight at 1, then you will proceed to a second stoplight at two. This is your lefthand turn onto 60 West. The drunk at 2:00 am, sees the cue up sign for the 60 West, but turns left at the first stop light at 1. This puts him/her on the exit ramp from the 60 East. They are now traveling westbound in the eastbound lane.
This style of entrance to freeways is extremely prevalent in all the states West of the Mississippi that I have lived in and driven through including Texas, Arizona, California, and Washington. It's only confusing to those people who think that right-hand entrances/exits are the only way to go I guess. But the point is, given that they are so prevalent in the West why is it that we mostly hear about wrong-way drivers in Phoenix and not in all those other states?
Same thing can happen on the right hand turn to go East on 60. The entrance ramp is at 1 the first stoplight, but if the drunk goes through the first light then turns right at the second light, they would now be going onto 60 east in the westbound lanes.
Then they'd be not only drunk but stupid to boot!
Keep in mind, the drunk doesn't see all those red WRONG WAY signs the state is making bigger and bigger. They also fail to see the thousands of red lane reflectors as they travel in the wrong direction. This is mostly a DUI issue, far more than some senior out at 2 am and getting confused while sober.
Then they'd be drunk, stupid and additionally blind. IMHO, with such a person, he can find the wrong way onto a freeway anywhere in the country. Again, why Phoenix?
You cannot make these two mistakes on a cloverleaf design.
If your drunk, stupid and blind then sure you can!
I believe he was from Montana and 27 years old. Unfamiliarity with the roads, and being drunk most certainly contributed to the accident. It is truly amazing no one was killed.
Which is what SingleTrackMinded was asking about. Can't get more off base than that!
Yes and there's nothing wrong with that. We were not talking about this style of entrance to a highway. In fact, it was you that said:
That's what he and I were asking - where are these? And you point out several of them that do not match this "diamond" design.
Exactly. The image depicts a rather specific design, one I have never seen in Phoenix. Not saying the don't exist, just haven't seen them in the 25 years living in the area. The Image of the exits off the US 60 are not crossover designs (i.e. where you cross over onto the wrong side of typical traffic) as you originally posted.
Last edited by SingleTrackMinded; Nov 7, 2019 at 08:36 PM.
Reason: Fix quote tag
Exactly. The image depicts a rather specific design, one I have never seen in Phoenix. Not saying the don't exist, just haven't seen them in the 25 years living in the area. The Image of the exits off the US 60 are not crossover designs (i.e. where you cross over onto the wrong side of typical traffic) as you originally posted.
Kinda messed up the quote thing (need a "[" before the "/QUOTE]") but I agree. I think I came across one or two of these at one time. Most very North Phoenix or Scottsdale and the area is not that populated. And as somebody else said, at ground level, it's not that confusing. I believe most wrong-way incidents are on I-10 and there aren't any of these diamond kind of exchanges around. There are those "turn right to get onto the highway going right and turn left at the next light to go on the highway going left" exchanges. Again, these are common in Phoenix and most states West of the Mississippi.
The reason there are so many incidents of wrong way drivers in Phoenix has some to do with the entrance ramp designs. Phoenix uses the "diamond" entrance/exit design rather than the "cloverleaf" design.
With a diamond design (which saves land, and is chosen where cities are already built up) the driver has to chose either the left lane or the right lane to enter an expressway depending on the direction they wish to travel on the expressway.
There are various types of diamond interchanges. Your first picture is a diverging diamond interchange type. Its still somewhat rare compared to the other types. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverg...nd_interchange
