Yes, read the entire thread. This is the FIRST documented case, and the oil pump failures have been documented for years and are far to common. The owner did all right, shut the car off as soon as the low oil pressure DIC cam on. Had it towed to the dealer. Told them what it was (very common issue with years of GM TSB's on the pump failures, do a Google search on "LS3 oil pump failure"), and then the tech took the car out and drove it until he spun a bearing (does not take long w/out oil pressure). Then the tech to cover his ineptness convinced the service manager (fewer and fewer even have 1/4 of the knowledge a tech does today but some dealer have excellent ones) and then he convinced GM to void the warranty. It is in fact impossible for a properly designed, properly installed system to have ANY effect on oil pressure, and also is impossible for ANY damage to be done. Now take a "Tank" or "Breather can" and they can and will cause damage over time and DO give a legal reason to void the warranty. Elite provided this guy will all he needed to fight this, the links to the FTC's complaint form and law firm referrals that specialize in the Magnasun/Moss act and many of us donated to fund this, but he decided to back down. They ruined his experience with GM and all that the issue was was a inept service department and staff.

Take a bad tuner and even a bone stock car will hole the piston. A CAI NOR a proper air/oil separation system can do neither. BUT, the internet forums are full of unskilled tuners blowing up engines.

And if you drain back that concentration of water, unburnt fuel, sulfuric acid, abrasive soot/carbon/ash/etc. to the engine it will live only a fraction as log as it should. Craziest thing I have heard yet!!! With out the PCV system removing these damaging contaminates as they enter as blow-by, engines last only 1/4 to 1/3 of the miles as removing them.

A good separation system traps only a small amount of oil, most else is what I listed above.


Absolutely why the Corvette has been, and continues to be my # one pick for a performance car when you weigh the low price and what it can do. There is not another car IMHO that can match it for the Money in all area's. And remember, these are still mass produced cars, not hand built super cars!

 

One more question, I live in So-Cal

whats the best shop for this installation that you guys recommend? I know its an easy job but letting the professionals do it makes me feel better!.

Or its easy enough to do it yourself?

 

I am just to scared to install one, seeing how if i do it wrong it can cause problems.

although i bet if you are pretty intelligent you should be able to make it work.

I plan on one day reaching Z06BAIT, and having a manual clean done with catch can install in the coming years of ownership. I want to help document this problem at the same time by not installing one.

 

Yes, most can be installed in a few minutes with minimal tools and skill, but the can you mention only traps a small fraction of the oil and other contaminants (as most do) so they are more a placebo than actually helping to prevent these issues. Also, on the dual outlets VS single outlets, a single outlet will do nothing to reduce internal engine wear as the intake manifold vacuum is only present at idle, cruise, and deceleration. The cam lobe overlap creates reversion pulses that cancel any usable intake manifold vacuum during acceleration and WOT operation, and this is when the fuel and other contaminates entering as blow-by settle and mix with the engine oil. This was not as critical to address with the port injection engines of the past, but is with GDI engines for these reasons here:

Port injection engines the fuel was introduced at the intake port during the intake stroke of the piston, so only the compression process would force fuel past the rings into the crankcase (raw fuel, during combustion the combustion byproducts and some unburnt fuel enters all engines) and the soot/ash/carbon particles were a soft less abrasive materiel that caused only moderate wear. A GDI engine does not introduce the fuel until milliseconds before spark ignition, and as it is at 2,000-3,000 PSI, many times the amount of raw fuel enters the the crankcase past the the rings. This, and the particles are now a very hard crystalline abrasive form, it is more critical than ever to evacuate these compounds while still in suspension so the secondary evacuation suction source is more critical than ever.

This week I have been spending with the engineering team at one of the largest, most respected engine and lubrication testing labs in the US and learned a few things I had wrong. I have been stating that top tier fuels and in tank additives were useless as they never touch the valves to have any effect on coking. That is correct, but what I was shown is the GDI injectors, and the combustion process is so reliant on the fine atomization of fuel that even though it is rare, even a tiny amount of debris or build up on the nozzles will cause a less complete burn and added fuel wash-down, so I stand corrected. Top Tier fuels, and quality in tank additives ARE more critical than ever with GDI engines. They do nothing to "clean" the engine, and have no effect on valve coking, but engine longevity IS affected by additional raw fuel wash down and dilution of the engine oil.

Even at my advanced age (old guy here) I yearn to learn all I can, and my stance in the past has been as we do not "see" build-up on the injectors like old port injectors where it was visible, there can still be unseen deposits even at the incredibly high pressures of the fuel passing through.

 

GDI is terrible.

I hope these things get better in time.

 

The benefits of GDI are many, but until the ill effects are corrected, we will suffer from those.

 

Ya the benefits are great for the first year of ownership.....

 

The benefit of GDI is we have something to read about as an alternative to the political state of our country. The GDI issues will likely get resolved before our our leadership challenges are fixed.

 

its just beyond me how they aren't fixed it.

How are they about to make generations of GDI engines with no fix ? This problem is years old now.

I found out the new GM v8 was a GDI engine.
In my mind i said, no way are these GDI is STILL having problems.

Putting aside GM and cheaper cars.

How doesn't a 400k Lamborghini have some fancy OEM oil air separation.

 

We have to look at why GDI was forced down the automakers throats so to speak. The pressure to meet increasing CAFE fuel economy standards and emissions has exceeded what a port injection engine can meet. Aside from the intake valve coking is also the excessive fuel wash-down and dilution of the engine oil as well. When the fuel is injected at 2,000-3,000 PSI, far more washes past the rings and this also increases wear as well as the particulate matter forced between the piston and cylinders is also not the soft carbon of the past, but a very hard crystalline abrasive.

Toyota had been able to meet all of this with the Prius as the hybrid electric portion exceeds both emissions and fuel economy requirements, but it appears their latest engine for the Prius will also be GDI now.

And now that the automakers are trapping and returning far more of the oil and the concentrated mix of contaminants back to the crankcase, the wear on the engines internal components is also greatly increased. The challenges are great, and although the latest internal separation is reducing the rate of coking, internal engine wear is the trade off as they do not address this externally. You cannot return a concentration of the wear causing contaminants back to the engine crankcase without serious wear issues, and the public as a whole will never accept emptying a true air/oil separator every few thousand miles. Once these are able to self empty and still meet all emission guidelines, much will be solved as much as possible as there is still always going to be some coking caused by the back fill of burnt gasses in the EGR emulation function of these engines that still brings material into contact with the backsides of the valves, but this should be able to be safely deal with with a solvent based upper induction cleaner.

One this for sure, no automaker would stop selling their offerings because of these issues, and the Corvette can still be enjoyed with some hands on maintenance. So, here is my latest list of caring for GDI engines:

Only run a good premium full synthetic oil due to far less deposit formation when burned.

Oil changes should be done far more frequently until (and this is a big if) and if the fuel wash-down and dilution is can be solved. Even a premium full syn oil can only handle so much abrasive content and acid and still protect properly.

Top tier fuel AND good fuel additives should be used (and this does not have a direct reduction in the coking issues, but even a slight disruption in the injectors spray pattern will increase wash-down and dilution).

Add one of the few actually correctly designed air/oil separation systems that do trap and contain nearly all of the oil and other contaminates from the PCV vapors and at the same time provide constant evacuation of the crankcase (evacuation is NOT venting!) so these are removed before they can settle and contaminate the engine oil. Once in the oil, most is there to stay.

To date, the engines we study that are regularly "driven with spirit" instead of idled around as the increased velocity of flow past the valves makes build up more difficult.

If you have a GDI engine with over 10-15k miles on, only a properly performed manual valve cleaning will clean the valves completely clean and not cause damage. Once the valves are clean, or if following these steps from new every 10-15k miles a solvent based upper induction cleaning can be performed to help keep guide wear to a minimum.

We must care for these engines in a new way if we expect long life from these. It is a new era in vehicle ownership.

 

So relating this to the VW emission scandal. "They" discovered certain VW models were cheating emissions (you of course know the rest).

Why havent "they" made claims against GDI cheating MPG, power, and emissions? GDI engines according to you are clearly having problems worldwide.

the companies are literally cheating the people what they paid for.

 

The VW debacle was rumored to be an "insider" blowing the whistle for a reward (up to 50% of fines paid in some cases!!) and was not that the VW diesel did not pass tailpipe emissions, it was during the "readiness test" where it would default and give all is as should be back to the testing device. $10 billion!!! The Govt on GDI engines is not looking at how through degradation these eventually have worse MPG and more emissions than past port injected engines, they have to meet the guidelines as they leave the assy line. The VW was "cheating" from the factory....even though IMHO it was only to make the readiness portion of the emissions testing down the road easier on the owners (many here know how frustrating it is to get the car in the "readiness mode").

I wonder what the former VW employee is getting as far as his "reward" for this (if that is what truly happened).

 

I have a base 2014 m7 with 23k miles. I have had minimal detonation since 10k that no one can figure out. I have had an increase of about 1 to 2 mpg in the past year( I check manually pretty often considering detonation) I am thinking not much coking going on at this point. I have not noticed a decrease in power even with timing retarding with initial detonation.

 

I am just shocked after all these years with problematic GDI, not a single person or automotive group has tried to make the car companies change.

I am sure most people dont care about power loss, but loss in MPG/more emissions(environmental people) is going to **** people driving economy cars off.

 

I will make a guarantee.....just as the others that had before and after dyno's with a manual valve cleaning all stated the same, "I will be amazed if there is any power gains as I sure have not noticed" until of course driving after the cleaning, yours has degraded as well. You will also see most of that KR disappear when you install a CoSPeed dual valve system w/Cleanside to stop the oil causing the detonation.

PM me where your located if you want to see first hand.

Loss in MPG is also gradual, and few owner actually track it. The industry is under a ton of pressure to adopt solutions, but the cost has to date been the reason they have not. The self emptying no service needed for over 100k miles solution is being tested by some, so lets see what happens a few years down the road.

How many kept buying the Cadillac NorthStar engine cars for years after it was found to have an electrolysis problem corroding the head bolt threads in the block? Years before GM halted production. Same with Ford still not correcting properly the ecoboost engine failures, etc.

 

So by this statement you are saying that the Elite E2 catch can is "placebo" which to me means a waste of money.

Can you explain how your coloradoSPEED "PREMIUM" Oil Catch Can is better designed to catch all of the oil and contaminants?
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...6-p-37974.html

Also if the Elite E2 is crap why do you sell it?
http://www.coloradospeed.com/oil-pum...6-p-31246.html

 

What have you used to detect the timing retard? Is the detonation audible or quantified an some other manner?

 

Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Never made those statements anywhere. Elite makes several different models for different applications. The Elite base can, the original is a design from far before GDI engines were popular. They were for the standard port injection LS engine with one inlet and one outlet for simplicity. That design has remained the same for over a decade and is still a great "budget" solution for a port injection engine that washes the valves and has no coking issues. Port injection engine tolerate a good amount of oil ingestion and aside from added KR due to detonation, a daily driver used car that is port injected does well with these for the price. The E2 was the next evolution in the Elite cans with twice the capacity and the addition of a second outlet allowed the use of a secondary suction source to provide constant evacuation and also use with most forced induction (if you purchased the optional checkvalves, etc.). That was introduced several years ago for port injection bigger power builds and forced induction builds. They have recently moved the outlets from the sides to the top for even more effective separation. They then released the billet cleanside separator that is a great addition to most any catchcan addressing the clean, or fresh side ingestion issues.

The E2-X is the latest design utilizing an Automotive Engineering design team that has a history of designing proper crankcase evacuation systems, air oil separation and OEM PCV system components. It was to address the obvious fact that GDI is here to stay, and they needed a system far more effective than anything on the market at the time. It also included all the billet checkvalves, AN fittings, 1/4 turn high quality ball valve drain, flow restrictor for the LT4, etc. as a bundled complete system. Each is price accordingly and each fits customers needs and budgets. So no matter what the application, Port or DI, NA or FI, they offer the absolute best solutions for any application (and ColoradoSpeed has most of these same offerings as well) always keeping at the cutting edge of the new challenges and needs. There is no "one size fits all" in this field, and no need to discontinue their earlier proven designs/models as they all are there to give the customer a choice.

The E2 is close in effectiveness, but most standard features with the E2-X are optional with the E2. And with there always being those that want a "budget" solution for low cost (for port injection engines) the base Elite is hard to equal for the price, but is not the best solution for GDI engines OR forced induction.

Hope that covers your question.....just as the tires you buy for your Corvette are speed rated and designed for the application, you don't put a Prius tire on it. Or a Stingray speed rated performance tire on a pick-up truck. The "catchcan" market is full of "one size fits all" products being promoted in applications they are not proper for, ColoradoSpeed and Elite Engineering are apart from the crowd in taking these steps.

 

So with the new data about needing to add fuel additives to help keep the injectors clean.

I thought some of those additives can be harmful to the DI injectors ?

Which product is safe to use ?

 

Yes it is audible, confirmed by 2 mechanics that its detonating. Another forum member who has it used racing fuel(completely gone) and I have used Lucas Octane Booster which was a big help. I assumed with detonation timing would retard also told by one mechanic but nothing tested to confirm, I haven't noticed any loss of power.