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I'm not exactly sure how BMW does it (maybe because they have smaller tires or less power or whatever it may be) but they do very well on the track in stock form. BMW, Lotus and Porsche all do just fine on the track right out of the box. I couldn't go 3 laps in my GS or Z51 without upgrading pads and fluid.
That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the brakes though. I a not sure of your experience, but I assume you are experienced, which would lead me to believe you understand proper brake pedal application and use. I have tracked a GS on factory pads and fluid and had no issues at all. The heat tears through the pads for sure though, but no fade to be found.
I have been racing, instructing and performing data analysis for many years and the most consistent trend I find in people's driving is a lack of proper brake use leading to people spending a **** load of money to upgrade brakes to get them not to fade when in reality all they needed to do was focus on braking properly.
Last edited by subieworx; Sep 7, 2018 at 10:28 AM.
That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the brakes though. I a not sure of your experience, but I assume you are experienced, which would lead me to believe you understand proper brake pedal application and use. I have tracked a GS on factory pads and fluid and had no issues at all. The heat tears through the pads for sure though, but no fade to be found.
I have been racing, instructing and performing data analysis for many years and the most consistent trend I find in people's driving is a lack of proper brake use leading to people spending a **** load of money to upgrade brakes to get them not to fade when in reality all they needed to do was focus on braking properly.
It really depends on your track and conditions. There is zero chance a GS on Cup2 will make it 3 laps around my home track on factory brake pads. I overheated them in 3 laps on PSS. My friend who is a pro driver, national champ, etc overheated his Z26 pads in his Z06 on PSS in 1 lap (he bought the car used and that's what they had- he just came out to instruct us). Other tracks they might survive.
I agree that lots of people drag out braking too long and overslow the car, resulting in overusing the brakes.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm pretty good on the brakes. I have lots of other problems, but I'm pretty good about not touching brakes unless I need to. Sometimes I trail in too deep (motorcycle habits), but that's not really hurting anything.
Last edited by village idiot; Sep 7, 2018 at 10:53 AM.
I have been racing, instructing and performing data analysis for many years and the most consistent trend I find in people's driving is a lack of proper brake use leading to people spending a **** load of money to upgrade brakes to get them not to fade when in reality all they needed to do was focus on braking properly.
So what tips would you have? I'm an instructor too and what I've noticed is people brake too lightly which leads to longer braking zones. Doing this lap after lap puts lots of heat into the brakes. Its better to get on the brakes later but much harder, this reducing braking time which in turn lowers heat. However that takes confidence... which newbies lack. What I really notice is inconsistency in brake application - this makes it difficult for me to tell if the problem is vehicle or operator related.
So what tips would you have? I'm an instructor too and what I've noticed is people brake too lightly which leads to longer braking zones. Doing this lap after lap puts lots of heat into the brakes. Its better to get on the brakes later but much harder, this reducing braking time which in turn lowers heat. However that takes confidence... which newbies lack. What I really notice is inconsistency in brake application - this makes it difficult for me to tell if the problem is vehicle or operator related.
I wrote this LONG long time ago, without the benefit of actually proof reading more as a brain dump. But the graphs are pretty.
So what tips would you have? I'm an instructor too and what I've noticed is people brake too lightly which leads to longer braking zones. Doing this lap after lap puts lots of heat into the brakes. Its better to get on the brakes later but much harder, this reducing braking time which in turn lowers heat. However that takes confidence... which newbies lack. What I really notice is inconsistency in brake application - this makes it difficult for me to tell if the problem is vehicle or operator related.
I always thought braking should be the first thing that's taught (after just getting lines down). If your braking is off, or inconsistent, you're not gonna enter the turn right. If you don't enter the turn right, everything is wrong.
Modern cars have ABS. I like to suggest braking HARD, but not SLAMMING the brakes (it should take about half a second or so) so the weight can move forward as pressure increases. Brake at 100% and let ABS do its thing if needed and then trail off. Doing this, they can find a good brake marker because it will be consistent. They can back up the brake marker to enter slower or move it forward to enter faster. Then work on threshold braking.
Inconsistent braking really kills the learning curve. I feel like a lot of people are scared to brake hard so they kind of test it and back off. It's understandable in our cars- the brakes are like something out of a cartoon. At COTA I was braking at the 125 or 150 ft marker (well, between 100 and 200) at 152mph going into a hairpin turn staring at a wall. Lots of slower cars were braking at the 250-300 because of how terrifying it was. I was only on R888R- I can't imagine on slicks. My instructor was terrified the first two times and then he laughed the third time.
Last edited by village idiot; Sep 7, 2018 at 02:55 PM.
Here's a quick example of what I was talking about regarding digressive braking. Not a great shot, as I haven't really figured out how the Cosworth Toolbox works in scaling the graph, but you can get a sense of how the braking ramps up quickly, but before ABS is activated, and then trailed off as I approach the turn.
This is but ONE example though. And most of my more experienced club racing and semi-pro friends say BRAKING is what separates the boys from the men. It's always the first thing we teach, but the LAST thing anyone masters.
Here's a quick example of what I was talking about regarding digressive braking. Not a great shot, as I haven't really figured out how the Cosworth Toolbox works in scaling the graph, but you can get a sense of how the braking ramps up quickly, but before ABS is activated, and then trailed off as I approach the turn.
This is but ONE example though. And most of my more experienced club racing and semi-pro friends say BRAKING is what separates the boys from the men. It's always the first thing we teach, but the LAST thing anyone masters.
I was always very inconsistent till I started working on braking. Now every lap without traffic is within half a second for a given session. And I only started making real improvements to my driving after I started to be consistent.
Last edited by village idiot; Sep 7, 2018 at 02:59 PM.
Yep. I did a private event once, where a bunch of track rat buddies of mine rented out Buttonwillow and we ran the 1CW configuration. There were so few of us I managed to get into a great grove sans traffic, and when I reviewed my data they were ALL within 0.2 seconds of each other, like 5 laps in a row.
Problem was, when I was comparing data with another friend who was there, driving a car with less HP and tires, I noticed his terminal velocity into a specific turn and speed through a preceding corner was consistently 2-3 mph faster than mine did I realize I was over-braking for that specific turn. Small adjustment there netted me another 1/2 second per lap.
This whole "drive as fast as you can around a looped road surface" game is 99% in the head and a lot harder than it looks.
Not only that, I remember this one time I went to the track during a particularly stressful part of the work season, and the entire day I couldn't get anywhere close to what my normal times were on the same track. Struggled to find any consistency despite the car being in incredible shape with fresh fluids, brakes, and tires. Eventually I quit that job and went to work at a great company with excellent pay, and next time at that same track I magically were seconds, SECONDS faster than the previous time.
This is a sport where if your head is no 100% committed to what you're doing at the time, stuff happens. I've gotten into a routine recently where I take a 1 minute breathing exercise before I even start my engine before I get on track, and that seems to help a lot in clearing my head for nice, clean laps.
So much of going fast is in your head, it's amazing.
Once I started track driving my respect for profession racers went way up. When you see the times Indy, F1 and NASCAR guys run lap after lap its just incredible. Anyone who thinks driving fast is "easy" has clearly never tried. Its stressful and incredibility challenging both mentally and physically. However when you nail the one turn or get a great lap the feeling is just awesome and makes it all worthwhile.
