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Soler ported throttle body install / experience

 
Old 05-30-2019, 10:47 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Keefer07 View Post
Ordered mine yesterday morning. Hopefully I will get tracking info today.
Same here.
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Old 05-30-2019, 05:47 PM
  #22  
David Gordon
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Do you just sell them outright and I could send in my core?
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Old 05-30-2019, 06:21 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by David Gordon View Post
Do you just sell them outright and I could send in my core?
You have three options:

1) A new part (outright sale, no core)
2) Rework your own TB (you ship your stock TB, we rework it and ship back to you)
3) Core exchange (outright sale, core return/refund)

I think you are referring to option 3) in which we'll ship a used reworked part (core) upon receiving your order, then you have 30 days to ship your stock TB to us for a core refund.

Thanks,
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:08 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by fishpick View Post
(I paid full price for this throttle body and am in no way associated or compensated by Mike @ Soler Performance)


I opted to NOT do the full ECU relearn procedure because - most folks won't do that - and I wanted to report here the most likely procedure which is just drive cycles and FIFO data replacement in the tables.

Car started right up - idled a little high on the cold start but calmed itself back down after about 20 seconds... that was it... off I went for a drive. Instantly noticed a difference when backing out of the garage and then when starting forward in the driveway... that super low / no throttle slow clutch let out / engine sorta sounds like a diesel was gone. Slight throttle pressure that would ave seemed to be "unnoticed" before by the car instead gave it just enough to make starting from a stop smooth. Same experience at every stoplight, parking lot, and "activate the front camera to pull up to the curb" moment. smooth and reliable - the fear and sounds of near stall seem to be gone. That's 100% measurable / experiential fact.
Did you do steps 2 to 5 or go right to 6 or just drive like you normally do?
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:37 PM
  #25  
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I bolted it on and took off. Thatís it!
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:01 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by fishpick View Post

One "unexpected" change with the car - and it's not really a negative... Engine braking is greatly diminished.
I just noticed this same thing today, no engine breaking.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:01 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by fishpick View Post
Engine braking is greatly diminished
Very interesting.

I can speculate, but does anyone know why?
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:21 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Very interesting.

I can speculate, but does anyone know why?
Unofficially, Mike told me the MTB slightly alters the Gravitational Constant of the Universe (but only affecting the incoming intake air) which makes that air "assume less mass relative to everything else, and therefore less of a resistance to the reciprocating pistons, allowing them to operate "easier"; ergo, reduced engine braking.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:53 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Elk View Post
Very interesting.

I can speculate, but does anyone know why?
In short, accelerating faster in one direction means decelerating slower in the other.

When moving the blade forward (opening TB) we increased airflow rate and reduced pressure losses for every position of the blade after idle. When you go backward (closing TB) those same factors allow for easier suction during the intake stroke, less pumping loses (engine braking).

That and what ssmith512 said. ;-)

Thanks,
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Old 06-01-2019, 04:16 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
In short, accelerating faster in one direction means decelerating slower in the other.

When moving the blade forward (opening TB) we increased airflow rate and reduced pressure losses for every position of the blade after idle. When you go backward (closing TB) those same factors allow for easier suction during the intake stroke, less pumping loses (engine braking).

That and what ssmith512 said. ;-)

Thanks,
Ugh, it makes so much sense after you say it.

I am STILL waiting to test, Mike. The weather and the flu is going around up here.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:57 PM
  #31  
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This evening I pulled my Z06 out of the garage, and then back in the garage, using nothing but the clutch, no gas pedal. I couldn't do that when I installed it 6 weeks ago, or even one week ago. This "learning" process that the Soler unit evokes is legit.
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:02 PM
  #32  
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I can confirm engine braking is reduced (albeit slightly) with the Soler MTB, but I would not categorize it as "significantly less" than stock. During in-gear decel (car is an M7), I do not feel as if the car is coasting "freely". There is still a decent amount of engine braking available.
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Old 06-02-2019, 08:01 AM
  #33  
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Has anyone looked to see what the Torque Based ECU timing is doing during the "reduced engine breaking" feeling? Was this researched by Soler Engineering? Reason why I ask is that it is the ECU's default behavior to reduce spark timing when it sees too much air at a given RPM. This isn't an issue at full throttle but definitely comes into play at idle and part throttle with ported TB's. Torque based ECU uses something called Torque Management Advance to control timing to which in turn affects the desired throttle position(in turn derived from desired torque).

Last edited by Internets_Ninja; 06-04-2019 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 06-04-2019, 12:03 AM
  #34  
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X2 regarding your experience with your Mustang and your comments about being done with all the wrenching you did. I had a 2010 GT500 that I cammed twice, then back to stock while mixing in different TVS blowers. End result was stupid wild power (768whp) that was not practical and some STF gremlins that I couldn't solve with the best tuners out there. Bottom line, my new GS is perfect for me and I too am only interested in a few bolt-ons.
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:36 PM
  #35  
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The check has left the building, order has gone in. Now the wait.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:02 PM
  #36  
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UPDATE and FINAL THOUGHTS / OPINIONS
I promised an update after more miles and a HPDE event... so this last weekend (Friday - Sunday) I was at the Glenn... so here's my findings on my car - about 900+ miles on this TB at this point (including 3 days of about 2 hours track time a day)... As a refresher I did not do the ECU/PCM relearn - I bolted the TB on and drove.

On cold start - there is a portion of the loop that is LOUDER when the exhaust is in Track mode than before the new TB. It starts, idles for 3-4 seconds then loop state changes and it gets very loud and I might go so far as to say almost close to "a little rough" for maybe 4-5 seconds then the car settles and it's back to normal. No big deal - but it's been very consistent after the first 250 or so miles.

I think the tip in is still markedly better than it was stock - but not quite as good as when the ECU was "learning" - I think the ECU has very likely used the default expected mass air flow tables to change the TB angle a little bit so when you tip in - it's just a fraction of a degree less now with the ported TB - still MUCH better than stock - but... When the ported TB was first on - the first 150-200 miles - the car would never make the diesel sound from a stop. Now that things have been fully relearned - it's possible to get the diesel sound and the tip in needs to be a little bit greater effort... again - still like 80% more responsive than factory but 20% "less" responsive than when the PTB was "new" and unlearned.
I'll be honest - I totally expected this. It's also very logical as to why and how this happens given how air flow rates are interpolated against the data tables and how modern PCM's learn. The thing that's important to note - the RESPONSIVENESS is still there. So - whereas before the ECU knew the air rates for stock TB and the car would go with almost no effort from a stop... now - the gentle tip in you would expect MAKES the car go... factory - I was always searching for "where's the damn throttle" when trying to start from a stop. I imagine if you were to mess with a tune of the MAF tables (assuming the ECM exposes them) - you could get this thing super stupid sensitive and increase that off the line flow to be slightly better... but since this is all about the PTB and ONLY the PTB - I'm happy with where it settled out at. No complaints and totally up to my expectations for street driving and value. And I'm not tuning anything - nor do you need to.

On the track in the HPDE environment it's definitely an improvement... frankly - more so than on the street - IMHO. The ability to GENTLY modulate throttle to induce throttle steer... OR to deliberately and controlled apply throttle to get to WOT (or partial) is critical... and the ability for ME - and my foot and brain and car - to find the CORRECT throttle input was exponentially better with this PTB installed. Partial throttle became much more controllable when needed and modulation, well... with slight let off to induce the front to come around or slight application to push out... MUCH more controllable and predictable for ME. So much so that the throttle became much more of a tool in controlling the car than the last event where. Said differently - the stock throttle body felt to me like a digital switch - you could press and get 1,2,3,4,5... and your job on the track was to "find 2 when you need less than 3"... the PTB is more like an analog dial... it's 1-5... so if you need 2.3, you can ask for and instantly get 2.3... you don't have to "get close" you can get what you want. That's HUGE. (Sure this applies to the street too... but I didn't realize how EXPLICIT this was and how much different it was until on the track where this becomes much more important)

SUMMARY
My opinion 900+ miles in... of which about 50% were on the track... I'd say the PTB is a solid investment and I'd do it again (but I won't have to because this one will last). It definitely and clearly improves street-ability from a stop and in crisper response to pedal input / tip in. Not "faster" response - just "cleaner" response. The only "unexpected side-effect" seems to be the open/closed loop sound at cold start... but - it's really irrelevant... just a full disclosure kind of guy. On the track I think it made my throttle response MUCH more "clean & smooth" and clean & smooth = consistent... and not having to worry or hunt for the right throttle position is one less thing to worry about at speed... so that's a HUGE positive.

If you are reading this because you are looking for a warranty safe and very cost effective for the improvement way to make you car more fun - no - you can't have mine I'm keeping it and glad I have it - go get your own!
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:23 PM
  #37  
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Thank you very much, fishpick. This is our second track feedback and the first one posted, also very detailed. I hope, we have not missed any other post about track performance of our TB's.

This is what our other customer had to say about his track experience:

"As expected, it did help some in slow turns with staying in third gear for a smooth run to eliminate the “turbo kick effect” once rpm reached the power band. It also helped with corner transition staying in 3rd. However, when I was after it hard, I still had to go into second to keep it in power band when I was going 100%."
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:27 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by fishpick View Post
On the track in the HPDE environment it's definitely an improvement...
Told you'd appreciate the effectiveness of the Soler MTB on the track!!

It is THE mod of the Century IMO.

Mike - THANK YOU for not only understanding the problem, but having the knowledge to be able to bring a solution to market for the rest of us!!!
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Old 06-11-2019, 10:38 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by ssmith512 View Post
Told you'd appreciate the effectiveness of the Soler MTB on the track!!

It is THE mod of the Century IMO.

Mike - THANK YOU for not only understanding the problem, but having the knowledge to be able to bring a solution to market for the rest of us!!!
Thank you, ssmith, fishpick, all the test members, and all those who trusted us w/ their cars. It was done for street driveability, being also good at HPDE is another topping (huge one). It all makes sense that what you can use on the street can also help at the track. This is a graph that explains the "analog dial" fishpick is talking about.

Look at the width of the curves' knees (transition), you can see w/ the OEM in order to dial an in-between you have to be inside those 8 degrees of throttle, a bit under you'll have too little throttle, a bit above would be too much. This is the "digital effect" descrete feel described by fishpick.

On the other hand, with our design, the knee (transition) is more than twice the width of the OEM. You have 17 degrees to dial your desired throttle, it is hard to miss. Also, that knee is connecting two rates of acceleration that are closer to each other than those of the OEM. That makes it feel analog, your ability to control anywhere you want to be on the throttle curve.


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Old 06-11-2019, 02:37 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by ssmith512 View Post
Told you'd appreciate the effectiveness of the Soler MTB on the track!!
@ssmith512 can't you tell I'm the skeptical type

That said - I'm also pretty humble... so... here's the "you were right" - you totally earned that one

Last edited by fishpick; 06-11-2019 at 02:38 PM. Reason: typig is hrd
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