Manual or Automatic
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Likes: 38
From: ATX
i'm very disappointed at the lack of a DCT/PDK or whatever you want to call a dual clutch manual. (not a sequential manual). i have owned nothing but three pedal cars my entire life, but even at the C6Z level of performance the lack of a DCT option is no longer trivial from a performance perspective. if the a8 auto doesn't live up to the press release hype, it will be 80% of a deal breaker for me. and by hype, they claim it's faster than porsche PDK, but there are a lot of ways of defining fast. does it respond to my commands as quickly as will the p car and also have incredibly fast shifts, or does it take >1 second to shift after flappy paddle input, but when it does, the shift is very fast? the latter will be unacceptable. it needs to both respond as fast and shift as fast as i've experienced in e92M and f82Ms to be acceptable. and this is in addition to sustaining hot lapping ability. and since they're benchmarking PDK...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...s-65-7-roa0314
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...s-65-7-roa0314
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,436
Likes: 977
From: Overland Park KS
i'm very disappointed at the lack of a DCT/PDK or whatever you want to call a dual clutch manual. (not a sequential manual). i have owned nothing but three pedal cars my entire life, but even at the C6Z level of performance the lack of a DCT option is no longer trivial from a performance perspective. if the a8 auto doesn't live up to the press release hype, it will be 80% of a deal breaker for me. and by hype, they claim it's faster than porsche PDK, but there are a lot of ways of defining fast. does it respond to my commands as quickly as will the p car and also have incredibly fast shifts, or does it take >1 second to shift after flappy paddle input, but when it does, the shift is very fast? the latter will be unacceptable. it needs to both respond as fast and shift as fast as i've experienced in e92M and f82Ms to be acceptable. and this is in addition to sustaining hot lapping ability. and since they're benchmarking PDK...
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...s-65-7-roa0314
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...s-65-7-roa0314
What really concerns me is this: will the AT 8 tolerate 25 minutes of 'hard' running in the Advanced group at my local DE event in the summer? If it overheats and the car goes into 'limp' mode; I'll be very disappointed.
Bish
Burning Brakes
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Likes: 38
From: ATX
One main transmission advantage of the Z06 versus a 991, etc is that the torque is so high that the actual need for gear changes on a road course will be minimized. On most courses you can probably run around in just three gears for a whole lap; hence even if the AT takes somewhat longer than the PDK to initiate a change, you'll be changing so less often that it becomes moot.
What really concerns me is this: will the AT 8 tolerate 25 minutes of 'hard' running in the Advanced group at my local DE event in the summer? If it overheats and the car goes into 'limp' mode; I'll be very disappointed.
Bish
What really concerns me is this: will the AT 8 tolerate 25 minutes of 'hard' running in the Advanced group at my local DE event in the summer? If it overheats and the car goes into 'limp' mode; I'll be very disappointed.
Bish
100% agree on limp mode.
i've found that i actually like the uber quick shifts of a DCT just puttering around town. this is more an opinion/preference than some hard number, but there's something very satisfying about having extremely responsive, quick, and smooth shifts even when grandma'ing it around.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,245
Likes: 2,176
From: Cary NC
i've found that i actually like the uber quick shifts of a DCT just puttering around town. this is more an opinion/preference than some hard number, but there's something very satisfying about having extremely responsive, quick, and smooth shifts even when grandma'ing it around.
Same here - I enjoy the smooth fast shift of a good clutchless unit around town, much more than I enjoy having to operate a clutch. Even though I'm good with a clutch, I've never particularly enjoyed it.
.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,436
Likes: 977
From: Overland Park KS
i agree and good point on the wide useful power band for either a 991 turbo or a Z. (GT3 is obviously a different animal in this regard) the problem i have with the delay (should it exist) is the predictability and feel. one thing i've really appreciated in my DCT experience is how quickly the trans does what you ask it to do. that one probably won't translate to paper numbers as it's more of a feel thing; if the auto is slow to respond, the driver will just have to learn to ask for everything 1/2 second sooner, but to me, that's like a car with numb steering vs one which has great feel.
100% agree on limp mode.
i've found that i actually like the uber quick shifts of a DCT just puttering around town. this is more an opinion/preference than some hard number, but there's something very satisfying about having extremely responsive, quick, and smooth shifts even when grandma'ing it around.
100% agree on limp mode.
i've found that i actually like the uber quick shifts of a DCT just puttering around town. this is more an opinion/preference than some hard number, but there's something very satisfying about having extremely responsive, quick, and smooth shifts even when grandma'ing it around.
Bish
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
The new corvette 8 speed automatic up shifts faster than the Porsche PDK.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
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Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
The new corvette 8 speed automatic up shifts faster than the Porsche PDK.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 5,027
Likes: 320
From: N. CA
The new corvette 8 speed automatic up shifts faster than the Porsche PDK.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
It will be interesting to read the reviews and test drive GM s newest 8 speed automatic.
Considering all the other latest and greatest this new 650 hp 650 lb/ft of tq c7 z06 delivers I fully expect this automatic 8 speed to exceed the recently released and excellent reviews of the ZF8 hp in the jaguar f type.......
Should be august I'd imagine the reviews should start coming in.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...n/#more-805018
The gear ratio spacing is very good, the transmission feel of the GM 8L90 should be very competitive to the acclaimed ZF 8HP family of transmissions.
There are some obvious similarities between the gear arrangement of the GM 8L90 and the ZF 8HP but there are significant differences as well. These similarities and differences have been explained in this article. The one advantage of locating the clutches close to the hydraulic pump and the valve body is better shifting times since less fluid has to be moved in and out of the clutch pistons to apply and release the clutches. Also, this design is likely very competitive in terms of mass for a given torque capacity, and is better than the ZF 8HP design in terms of rotational inertia.
There are other advances made in this transmission design as well, especially with regards to the hydraulic pump design. This particular transmission features a “cylinder deactivation” of sorts for the pump, when line pressure demands are low (highway cruising) half of the pump can be shut down to achieve higher efficiency while still retaining the pump displacement required to deliver enough flow rate for fast shifts.
Heel & Toe
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
I'm interested in trying out the new gm 8 speed auto in the zo6. I currently drive a jag Xkr-s that has the ZF 6 speed and I have driven the f-type v8 jag with the 8 speed ZF. Although, these are considered the best torque converter autos and do work well with quick up shifts and rev-matching downshifts, they are not nearly as good as the porsche pdk. I recently drove a new 991 turbo and the pdk is fantastic! The 991 gt3 has the unique pdk-s, which is even better - top speed in 7th (not overdrive gear), faster shifts, able to decouple the clutch, then drop the clutch at any speed, etc.
I am hopeful that the zo6 A8 will be a close match for the pdk as gm states. For guys like me that are not brand loyal, this will be a big determining factor when deciding to buy a zo6 vs gt3.
I am hopeful that the zo6 A8 will be a close match for the pdk as gm states. For guys like me that are not brand loyal, this will be a big determining factor when deciding to buy a zo6 vs gt3.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 13,934
Likes: 4,257
From: NC
So, get an auto Z06, if you decide you don't like it, you can give it to me, I'll suffer for a fellow Corvette owner (and Charlottean). Really, no need to thank me.
Jimmy
Le Mans Master
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 8,847
Likes: 795
From: Longview Texas
I don't really care how many gears they add to the automatic, I would still stay with manual transmission in a Corvette.
Have had several friends that bought Corvettes with auto and ended up trading for a manual car.
Even Leno likes the Corvette because a lot of European sports cars have gone to automatic only.
Have had several friends that bought Corvettes with auto and ended up trading for a manual car.
Even Leno likes the Corvette because a lot of European sports cars have gone to automatic only.
Last edited by TEXHAWK0; Jul 12, 2014 at 02:33 PM.
Race Director
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 16,067
Likes: 4,150
From: Bergen county NJ
Excellent insights! Thanks.......
I look forward to the actual road tests and eventual comparisions
I look forward to the actual road tests and eventual comparisions
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...n/#more-805018
The gear ratio spacing is very good, the transmission feel of the GM 8L90 should be very competitive to the acclaimed ZF 8HP family of transmissions.
There are some obvious similarities between the gear arrangement of the GM 8L90 and the ZF 8HP but there are significant differences as well. These similarities and differences have been explained in this article. The one advantage of locating the clutches close to the hydraulic pump and the valve body is better shifting times since less fluid has to be moved in and out of the clutch pistons to apply and release the clutches. Also, this design is likely very competitive in terms of mass for a given torque capacity, and is better than the ZF 8HP design in terms of rotational inertia.
There are other advances made in this transmission design as well, especially with regards to the hydraulic pump design. This particular transmission features a “cylinder deactivation” of sorts for the pump, when line pressure demands are low (highway cruising) half of the pump can be shut down to achieve higher efficiency while still retaining the pump displacement required to deliver enough flow rate for fast shifts.
The gear ratio spacing is very good, the transmission feel of the GM 8L90 should be very competitive to the acclaimed ZF 8HP family of transmissions.
There are some obvious similarities between the gear arrangement of the GM 8L90 and the ZF 8HP but there are significant differences as well. These similarities and differences have been explained in this article. The one advantage of locating the clutches close to the hydraulic pump and the valve body is better shifting times since less fluid has to be moved in and out of the clutch pistons to apply and release the clutches. Also, this design is likely very competitive in terms of mass for a given torque capacity, and is better than the ZF 8HP design in terms of rotational inertia.
There are other advances made in this transmission design as well, especially with regards to the hydraulic pump design. This particular transmission features a “cylinder deactivation” of sorts for the pump, when line pressure demands are low (highway cruising) half of the pump can be shut down to achieve higher efficiency while still retaining the pump displacement required to deliver enough flow rate for fast shifts.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,061
Likes: 54
From: montreal quebec
Welcome to the 21 st century
efficiency? Efficient at what? Turning horsepower into heat? 
or compensating for lesser skilled drivers? OH OH I know, maybe its efficient at adding weight
Yes, Im having fun. The auto may be faster then the stick but I still like to believe the professionals are quicker with the manual. The real results will be here quick enough though, the truth will soon be revealed. I think a skilled, heel-toe driver will be able to keep up with the auto and I would much rather have the manual in a car like this. Again, its just my preference. I really enjoy matching the revs in the twisties!
At this point, who really cares whos faster? Unless you are out on the track with Tony Stewart, all vehicles in this price range are overkill. Buy what you think you will have more fun with.
To me, the fun with these machines is finding your limits and expanding them until you find the veichles... not on public roads, of course.
Unless you just want something sporty to drive
or compensating for lesser skilled drivers? OH OH I know, maybe its efficient at adding weight
Yes, Im having fun. The auto may be faster then the stick but I still like to believe the professionals are quicker with the manual. The real results will be here quick enough though, the truth will soon be revealed. I think a skilled, heel-toe driver will be able to keep up with the auto and I would much rather have the manual in a car like this. Again, its just my preference. I really enjoy matching the revs in the twisties!
At this point, who really cares whos faster? Unless you are out on the track with Tony Stewart, all vehicles in this price range are overkill. Buy what you think you will have more fun with.
To me, the fun with these machines is finding your limits and expanding them until you find the veichles... not on public roads, of course.
Unless you just want something sporty to drive
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,212
Likes: 254
From: Folsom CA
Interestingly enough, I just finished watching the ALMS race at Mosport in Canada and during the race there were numerous "in cab" cameras watching the drivers of a very wide variety of sports racing cars including the Corvette C7R. There was not one driver of any brand/make that "rowed his own" gears. All of them were paddle shift. I'm not blind to the fact that "race" transmissions are not, nor do they resemble regular production units. Just an observation that "true race cars" don't have manual transmissions.
Scraping the splitter.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,111
Likes: 1,029
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
And if you talk to any "true race car driver", he'll very likely tell you that he much prefers the method of shifting that allows him to concentrate on more important things than shifting while racing. Two pro drivers have told me this, one a friend who won the 12-Hours of Sebring with the BMW Factory Team a couple of years ago.
The whole ridiculous notion that somebody is less "manly" because they prefer an automatic is a joke, and usually voiced by people who a.) don't put their car on any track, anywhere at any time and ; b.) likely can't drive a manual transmission car worth a crap in anything other than a daily driver mode.
People should buy what they prefer, or select the tool that fits the job best.
I personally had originally planned on the A8, but I don't think GM is going to be able to convince that that transmission is going to be able to handle the heat generated by 650 hp on-track. Just like the A6 can't handle the heat generated by 460 hp on-track for more than ~10-15 minutes. So it'll be a tough decision. If I plan to mostly use the car on the street and drag race it, the A8. If I decide to move the to Florida and track it, the M7. I'm probably months away from a decision, lol.
S.
Drifting
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 24
And if you talk to any "true race car driver", he'll very likely tell you that he much prefers the method of shifting that allows him to concentrate on more important things than shifting while racing. Two pro drivers have told me this, one a friend who won the 12-Hours of Sebring with the BMW Factory Team a couple of years ago.
The whole ridiculous notion that somebody is less "manly" because they prefer an automatic is a joke, and usually voiced by people who a.) don't put their car on any track, anywhere at any time and ; b.) likely can't drive a manual transmission car worth a crap in anything other than a daily driver mode.
People should buy what they prefer, or select the tool that fits the job best.
I personally had originally planned on the A8, but I don't think GM is going to be able to convince that that transmission is going to be able to handle the heat generated by 650 hp on-track. Just like the A6 can't handle the heat generated by 460 hp on-track for more than ~10-15 minutes. So it'll be a tough decision. If I plan to mostly use the car on the street and drag race it, the A8. If I decide to move the to Florida and track it, the M7. I'm probably months away from a decision, lol.
S.
As for the last paragraph, sad, but still may be true.
Melting Slicks
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,061
Likes: 54
From: montreal quebec
Sorry to disagree
Porsche no longer offers a manual and GTR never did to begin with,manuals will soon be gone in performance cars,Today s automatics are that good.
Scraping the splitter.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,111
Likes: 1,029
St. Jude Donor '13-'14-'15
You just can't get a manual in certain models, such as the GT3 or 911 Turbo. A 7-speed manual is available in all other iterations of the 911 and I 'think' the Boxster and Cayman. But to take it further, you can't get a manual in a Ferrari, Lambo or McLaren.
But I do, in general, agree with your last point.
S.