When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Then you know the only reason manufacturers opened buildings by the ring is to give potential owners a ride with professionals. It is marketing pure and simple.
You know you cannot get a clean lap there yet you assume that the times you see are based on clean laps. The only proper way to make sense out of lap times is to average a few dozen clean laps. No one does this for laptimes even on a track where it is feasible. It's all horsesheite.
They do get clean laps because they pay a lot of money for them. These are not Touristenfahrten or Track Days on the Nurburgring, they are days exclusivily for manufacturers when the track is cloded to the public except for perimeter road viewing.
When the conditions are right, many manufactures are there and run at timed intervals.
It is good marketing because word got round that the Ring is the best place in the world to measure one production sports car against another. If you subscribe to Sport Auto which you can get on line in English, it desrcibes how it is done. Sport auto controls this event. It is not horse sh one t.
No, considering the 1:30.97 it's closer to 3 seconds. You can't just change the argument to fit your agenda. It's not a 10 lap run, it's a 1 lap run. The Porsche ran a 1:30.97 lap. End of story.
End of story if a one lap figure is ALL you're looking for. And fair enough, for the majority of THEIR owners, that's all they look for.
For the few people that want to do sustained track sessions, a one lap wonder time is not the end of story.
"Oh it's much better here than you think ...Ferrari BANNED a decade+ member of their forum and deleted all his posts for posting pictures of him weighing his car he just paid 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS FOR!!! and has another 2 million dollars worth of Ferraris in his garage
Whereas here we badmouth Corvettes of all types till the cows come home and are fine"
so yes they (Ferrari) deleted the entire thread ..but no matter there's still this
There was one simple reason for the absence of Ferrari’s rival hypercar here: Maranello was invited to provide a car for this test but declined. At the same time, Ferrari made it clear that were we to test a private example, we would not be invited back to Maranello any time soon. Which is a shame because, having driven all three, albeit on separate occasions, I’m reasonably certain that LaFerrari would, shall we say, have acquitted itself quite well in this contest. But there you go…"
The same pattern right
Thanks I must have skipped where you had the link. I did however spend an interesting and entertaining time on the mclaren life forum that had a huge thread related to all of this.
Originally Posted by SBC_and_a_stick
You know, the more info comes out on the La Ferrari the more I think it's plausible. Let's consider Laguna Seca.
C6 ZR1 did it fastest 1:33.7
Porsche 918 1:30.97 first lap and roughly 1:32 second and thereafter with batteries at a steady state (which makes for a better comparison imo)
We are looking at a second and a half difference between last year's Corvette and a hypercar. We also know that on this size track, the tires alone are good for 1.5 seconds shorter times.
Now we know La Ferrari weighs the same or more compared to Z06 and we always knew it doesn't have a traction advantage, unlike say a 4wd 918.
Plausible? Hell yeah.
Going off of the 918 video of jays garage, the 918 re generated it's batteries in a very short amount of time while just driving. Does the steady state mean batteries depleted (had seen that in another post) or was there somehow more juice/power for this first lap? All three hypercars lose their battery fast on the track but should be able to test their fastest lap, even if it's just one lap. The owners of these cars know they are only going to get a short amount of time with full power. The 918 has the longest range out of them all so I'm perplexed how it had its batteries went in the first lap or I'm not reading this correct.
TWO SCALES... I am a McLaren owner (12c) and before that a 430 scud I am an active member of the Ferrari and McLaren owners community and its OWNERS who have the final say on these things and these figures were CONFIRMED by OWNERS ...So there is no jumping to conclusion, this was actually like a kick in the gut to us
When a guy runs out and spends $5000 on equipment to weigh his car he's not kidding around ...Cannot post the LaFerrari weight photos because they were LOCKED by the forum managers FERRARI ....should have expected this last night and saved the photos ,sorry guys
Wow I hope you are getting a Z06 and weight that as well to get an true comparison of where the Z06 sits.
Not to be a downer, but just becuase these HyperCars are heavy does not make them slow.
I love Z06's but lets get real here. Its 200 pounds heavier than a ZR1.. That's not going to chop 20 seconds t off a time.
actually it might. The new car is 125 LBS more, but significantly more downforce, faster shifting with A8, better suspension and carbon ceramic brakes. To get a better time, you brake deeper, come out quicker, shift faster and carry more speed into and through corner with downforce. just based on shifting if ever shift is 10th of a second faster carrying the same speed around the entire track it would more than make up for the 15 sec. Don't be surprised if it totally blow the old time away. Just look at how fat the GTR is and it kills the ring time.
actually it might. The new car is 125 LBS more, but significantly more downforce, faster shifting with A8, better suspension and carbon ceramic brakes. To get a better time, you brake deeper, come out quicker, shift faster and carry more speed into and through corner with downforce. just based on shifting if ever shift is 10th of a second faster carrying the same speed around the entire track it would more than make up for the 15 sec. Don't be surprised if it totally blow the old time away. Just look at how fat the GTR is and it kills the ring time.
The only way the Z06 will lop 15 seconds off of the ZR1's ring time (which would be 7.04) it will literally have to be a ringer...as was the Nismo most likely.
The ZR1 had CC brakes and Cup tires too.
15 Seconds is an eternity. The ZR1 and the Z06 is just to similar for there to be such a massive gap in times.
If the Z06 pulls those times, it is not a performance bargain, it is the best engineering feat of the last 10 years.
I'm a little surprised at the loss of innocence here. It's been like this for years. The mags need the manufactures to stay in business so they sold out to them. Don't play ball, your mag doesn't get the new Ferrari, Porsche or vette. Read between the lines on many of the car feature articles and it's clear that numbers are being fed the 'journalist' by the manufacturer who does nothing to verify.
Honestly, this is one reason why I enjoy Top Gear so much. Their popularity allows them to push back and poke the manufacturers more than pretty much any other media, but even they aren't immune -- they need Ferraris after all.
We live in a cheating culture. Maybe it was always this way. But seriously, how many cheating scandals do you have to hear about before you get that it's pervasive? What big NCAA program doesn't cheat? The steroid scandals? Bill Parcells taping the Rams run through before the Superbowl? What corp doesn't cheat on tax reporting, environmental reporting, etc. It's endless and it's a part of very nightly news cast. This is the world we live in. It's a culture that places money above all else and when big $$$ is at stake everyone is cheating. In the world of cars, nothing is bigger than Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche. Competition to sell cars to the super rich for 4x their value is huge. 'Everyone is cheating' should be the assumption you start with. Don't believe anyone and personally verify any fact you care about.
Thanks I must have skipped where you had the link. I did however spend an interesting and entertaining time on the mclaren life forum that had a huge thread related to all of this.
Going off of the 918 video of jays garage, the 918 re generated it's batteries in a very short amount of time while just driving. Does the steady state mean batteries depleted (had seen that in another post) or was there somehow more juice/power for this first lap? All three hypercars lose their battery fast on the track but should be able to test their fastest lap, even if it's just one lap. The owners of these cars know they are only going to get a short amount of time with full power. The 918 has the longest range out of them all so I'm perplexed how it had its batteries went in the first lap or I'm not reading this correct.
Which limits the rate of regeneration; the generators not putting out enough power, or the batteries rate of charging? If it is the batteries charge rate, could ultra capacitors help?
Nothing against dio55 but there are many McLaren owners who are doing there best to make up for McLaren's horrible media wing.
The 918's batteries should last way longer at the track because it uses regenerative braking. Obviously there's a lot of that on a track. The McLaren on the other hand doesn't have that feature so it drains out pretty quick under hard driving.
Additionally the 918 at the Ring had safety features....it wasn't some special coupe chassis.
Additionally the 918 showed a Ring time and full video whereas McLaren realized a beautiful video but gave absolutely zero proof of anything. The fact that there's a video only showed to owners at the factory shows that it's a BS video because they don't want to release it and have it examined.
Also, the 918 on old tires beat up the P1 in the Evo mag. McLaren later on sent a different set of tires and "tweaked" the P1 so it was just barely able to beat the P1.
I'm way more of a McLaren guy than a Porsche guy but McLaren has been nothing but a disappointment in my eyes. I think the 12C is great, I think the 650S is great but a face only Stephenson could love, I think the P1 is meh.
As far as the BS public relations goes it's Ferrari>McLaren>Porsche.
At the end of the day, while I hate the Ferrari company, nothing excites the soul like driving a Ferrari. Nothing.
You mean the same manufacturer who won't volunteer cars for track day shootouts to the media, the same manufacturer that won't ever fess up to the weight of the car in reality, the same manufacturer that can't even make a 720 horsepower car, beat a 460 horsepower car by more than .14 seconds around laguna?
That Ferrari?
The same one who's Enzo got smashed by the C6 ZO6... who's successor the 458 still got smashed by the C6 ZO6... that Ferrari? The same Ferrari who hasn't been a force in F1 for so long that new fans don't understand the big deal behind the nameplate in F1..that Ferrari? The same one that can't buy a win in ALMS? That Ferrari?
It might not beat the LaFerrari but it'll get a hell of alot closer than it should.
Then you know the only reason manufacturers opened buildings by the ring is to give potential owners a ride with professionals. It is marketing pure and simple.
You know you cannot get a clean lap there yet you assume that the times you see are based on clean laps. The only proper way to make sense out of lap times is to average a few dozen clean laps. No one does this for laptimes even on a track where it is feasible. It's all horsesheite.
"To underline that fact, our engineering team created this special Nürburgring taxi version in which our trained drivers can safely take passengers on very hot laps!"
I got passed by a few of these trained drivers in the Jags at the ring.
When you see a vid at the Ring of a super car, you know dam well that DA and track conditions were considered.
Hope springs eternal indeed. Luguna Seca is vastly different to the Ring. I've done 12 laps at the Ring, 6 of them in a 93 ZR1, and I can assure you it is ordinary narrow bumpy road with negative cambers, etc. It's not as nice as North Carolina roads.
The Carbon Z06 was 3 seconds slower than the ZR1 despite the 20mph difference on the straight and the HP difference. The C7 Z06 is 3 seconds slower than the Porsche 918 at Luguna Seca.
The Corvette chassis is a lot more compliant than La Ferrari and Ferraris, except for the V8s, have very high kinematic roll centers. Corvettes have the lowest of all sports cars. The Ring is a perfect venue to develop a high performance street car and that is why a 300lb engineer can drive it faster than Corvettes C7R race team driver around the Ring who is used to slicks and wings. This is a street car and not a race car.
While it’s unlikely that the C7 Z06 will break the Auto Sport approved Porsche 918 'production' lap record of 6:57, the Z06 will trump the former ZR1’s lap time of 7:19.63.
Jim Mero in the C7 Z06 Z07 did 7:22.68, that's 20 seconds faster than the last Z06 record lap (set in 2005), and only three seconds slower than the fastest ZR1 time.
A bunch of technicians and engineers did multiple spring changes and other adjustments during the time at the Ring. The car after the changes to the production car will come back as a proper production car compliant with Sport Auto rules. The Ferrari won't comply but someone will come up with a time which will be closer to the Vette time than the Porsche if it doesn't crash. Maybe Mero's crash prevented a final lap time in the Vette.
Two sports cars I'm looking forward to is the replacement for the F458 and the Supra, both will have 6 cylinder twin turbo engines, V6,L6 resp. BMW is designing the Toyota chassis which will be shared with their own sports car. These cars are due for the 2017 model year.
That wasn't a Carbon Z06, but a '12 Z06 with the Z07 package. Carbons were only made in 2011 and all 2011 Z06's had slightly more HP/Tq ( approx. +15/15) due to the one-off exhaust system that year (2 cat with x/pipe).
Car made certified SAE numbers much earlier in power band than previous years, so there is obviously more left in the RPM to peak power/torque. Also check Hib Halverson's testing later in the thread (post #42) where he made 11 more rwhp/rwtq replacing his '12 OEM exhaust system (with two extra cats) with an '11 OEM system. Just goes to show you how much those cats hurt performance.
Have you ever had to deal with Ferrari EVER!!! I'm not an expert in present or future Ferraris but I am an expert on Ferrari UNDERPERFORMANCE and DECEPTION.
Like I said before you are a low information commenter
1. the car weighs 770 goddam pounds more than claimed
2. LaF has the entire gearbox ,electric motor and active rear spoiler mechanism about 600lbs sitting a foot BEHIND the rear wheels ..ask the racing and engineering folk what they think about that (utter madness)
3. In order to harness the manic torque from the engine and motor they have fitted tires TWICE as wide as the P1 918 and Z07 ..you might want to ask the racers and engineers here to explain "following canvas" to you
4. the center of gravity of that MASSIVE engine is 6" higher than 918 about 8" higher than P1 and the Z07 ..again ask the racers and engineers what they think of that
5. That was a TOP F1 driver spinning out at what was far from racing speeds and it's EXACTLY what owners are complaining about on a track ..bringing the back around like a drift car may look good but it makes for WAY slower track times
The entire mechanical design of this car was amateur hour ...and when you hear it was designed by an architect and directed by the company president you realise why. Engineers ALWAYS build the fastest cars not architects when form takes precedent over function you end up with show not go, it's where they went wrong ....It's in the video below LaFerrari design secrets uncovered - autocar.co.uk - YouTube
Ferrari has explained this ever so slight weighing error. The owner accidently had left his diamond encrusted solid gold neck chain in the glove box along with his wife's old breast implants..
11-19-2014, 06:49 PM
