A8 Z06 at Daytona-Rolex
04-11-2015, 03:08 PM
#41
Team Owner
And he's also pointed out that he thinks a C7 ZO6 can run sub 2:00s.
a :10 is still flying around Daytona. That's better than an average driver is going to do. Average driver would be more like a :13.
:02s or less regardless of the car, is seriously flying.
There's a whole load of very good cars out there that won't even run :10s in the hands of most people.
a :10 is still flying around Daytona. That's better than an average driver is going to do. Average driver would be more like a :13.
:02s or less regardless of the car, is seriously flying.
There's a whole load of very good cars out there that won't even run :10s in the hands of most people.
04-11-2015, 03:18 PM
#42
Melting Slicks
04-11-2015, 03:29 PM
#43
Team Owner
Entirely correct, so there goes your argument that an "average" C6 Z06 or ZR1 runs a:13 and an "average" C7 Z06 runs a :02(or sub 2).
Now we know that BEZ06 can run an :05 in his C6 Z06 and snorman can run a :02 in his C7 Z06. Is BEZ06 an "exceptional" driver and snorman an "average" driver? Seems that is what you are insinuating, by dismissing BEZ06's times because they are not made by an "average" driver, yet are willing to accept snorman's times as being made by an "average" driver.
How do you rank the driving skills of BEZ06 against the driving skills of snorman?
04-11-2015, 03:42 PM
#44
Melting Slicks
Entirely correct, so there goes your argument that an "average" C6 Z06 or ZR1 runs a:13 and an "average" C7 Z06 runs a :02(or sub 2).
Now we know that BEZ06 can run an :05 in his C6 Z06 and snorman can run a :02 in his C7 Z06. Is BEZ06 an "exceptional" driver and snorman an "average" driver? Seems that is what you are insinuating, by dismissing BEZ06's times because they are not made by an "average" driver, yet are willing to accept snorman's times as being made by an "average" driver.
How do you rank the driving skills of BEZ06 against the driving skills of snorman?
Now we know that BEZ06 can run an :05 in his C6 Z06 and snorman can run a :02 in his C7 Z06. Is BEZ06 an "exceptional" driver and snorman an "average" driver? Seems that is what you are insinuating, by dismissing BEZ06's times because they are not made by an "average" driver, yet are willing to accept snorman's times as being made by an "average" driver.
How do you rank the driving skills of BEZ06 against the driving skills of snorman?
No one said an Average Driven C7ZO6 will run Sub 2s. BEZ06, said that he thinks the car's capable of sub 2s. Which I'm guessing since BEZ06 is supposed to be pretty damn fast around there (and from my understanding it's his home track to boot), means maybe he feels he can get the C7ZO6 under 2s.
What I am saying was pretty obvious. :02s is flying. Sub 2s as a possibility that's ridiculously fast. Snorman's hardly an average driver himself.
There's nothing binary in what I have said or implied. It's not a one or another question.
I'll say an Average Driven ZO6 is probably going to be 2 to 3 seconds quicker than an Average Driven ZR1, given all the data we DO have up to this point, in various lap times as my hypothesis. If for nothing else the sheer confidence inspiring nature of the chassis, and superior downforce. 180lbs Weight doesn't even come close to compensating for a 40 percent difference in chassis rigidity, and real downforce (versus lift)
04-11-2015, 04:38 PM
#45
Race Director
Here's a video from the Dec 2008 HPDE. This is in my stock C6 Z06 (maybe a few extra hp from a Halltech Killerbee intake, and I think I was running Hoosiers at this event). The first lap is a 2:06.8, and the second in traffic is slower at 2:12.8. I put up the video back then just to just show what the Rolex 24 track looks like and wasn't pushing hard in the video - I can easily go 8 to 10 mph faster through the Bus Stop (the chicane on the back straight). I think I usually did 2:04 to 2:05 when pushing the C6 Z06 a little harder:
Here's another video from the same event where I had a pro driver Chip Herr take the car around the track. The video starts after we have just completed T1 and entering T2 (actually a right-left ess). You can see the time displayed is actually what the current lap that you are watching will end up being (you can see a running time of the lap under the stationary time). The first lap is 2:01.179, and the second lap with some traffic is "only" 2:05.261. The video is not very hi res and the sound is non-existant (turn your speaker off!), but watch how smooth Chip is, relaxed on the wheel, fast shifts, and he goes deeper into the corners than I do:
https://vimeo.com/2511570
My cars are street cars - no race seats, no harness, no rollbar/cage. And I go to HPDEs just to drive fast and have fun cornering hard - but race car drivers run the **** out of a car!! They go deep into brake zones and brake HARD!! I've decided that at an HPDE I'm not going to get on the podium no matter how fast I go, so I've been driving on street tires for the last several years (well....Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are a "street tire"), I don't want to take the car to the max for every corner, and my 100% is only 85% or 90% of the car's capability.
The student I had at the event Thursday had never driven an HPDE before. He had a base Stingray - totally stock with an automatic. Timing a couple times with the second hand on my wristwatch showed he was doing about 2:15 on the fastest lap I timed. He was doing about 10 to 20 mph slower into the brake zones for the Bus Stop and across the Start/Finish line (you start braking down for the turn into the infield shortly after crossing the S/F line). I think he was doing a max of about 150 into the Bus Stop, and I saw mid 150s across the S/F with 157 being the max.
I think at Daytona with the same driver the C7 Z06 should be maybe 10 seconds per lap faster than a base Stingray.
.
Here's another video from the same event where I had a pro driver Chip Herr take the car around the track. The video starts after we have just completed T1 and entering T2 (actually a right-left ess). You can see the time displayed is actually what the current lap that you are watching will end up being (you can see a running time of the lap under the stationary time). The first lap is 2:01.179, and the second lap with some traffic is "only" 2:05.261. The video is not very hi res and the sound is non-existant (turn your speaker off!), but watch how smooth Chip is, relaxed on the wheel, fast shifts, and he goes deeper into the corners than I do:
https://vimeo.com/2511570
My cars are street cars - no race seats, no harness, no rollbar/cage. And I go to HPDEs just to drive fast and have fun cornering hard - but race car drivers run the **** out of a car!! They go deep into brake zones and brake HARD!! I've decided that at an HPDE I'm not going to get on the podium no matter how fast I go, so I've been driving on street tires for the last several years (well....Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are a "street tire"), I don't want to take the car to the max for every corner, and my 100% is only 85% or 90% of the car's capability.
The student I had at the event Thursday had never driven an HPDE before. He had a base Stingray - totally stock with an automatic. Timing a couple times with the second hand on my wristwatch showed he was doing about 2:15 on the fastest lap I timed. He was doing about 10 to 20 mph slower into the brake zones for the Bus Stop and across the Start/Finish line (you start braking down for the turn into the infield shortly after crossing the S/F line). I think he was doing a max of about 150 into the Bus Stop, and I saw mid 150s across the S/F with 157 being the max.
I think at Daytona with the same driver the C7 Z06 should be maybe 10 seconds per lap faster than a base Stingray.
.
04-11-2015, 04:57 PM
#46
Safety Car
Member Since: Jun 2000
Location: Winter Garden (central),FL,USA
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Central Florida Region, SCCA
Advanced Performance Driving Experience
PDX
At the Rolex Course - Daytona International Speedway
Held in conjunction with an SCCA Test Day
Entries will be limited to 50 cars. As a CFR PDX prototype and showcase event, we wish entry to be available to those that have supported the PDX program in the past. Potential entrant applications will be scrutinized for experience level and entry may be declined if that level does not meet the criteria established for this event as viewed by the PDX Chairman and/or the CDI. However, in all cases noted herein, we reserve the right to decline any entry request. A “waiting list” will be available once the 50 car maximum is reached. If you register and findt hat you are unable to attend, please be considerate and cancel your registration so that others may attend.
04-11-2015, 05:07 PM
#47
Race Director
EXCELLENT!! That should be fun. When is it? I'd like to come out to spectate and say hi!
Edited: Never mind!! I found the website info and see that you'll be doing two 20 minute sessions on May 1st, and I'll be out of town for that weekend. Have fun!!!!
Edited: Never mind!! I found the website info and see that you'll be doing two 20 minute sessions on May 1st, and I'll be out of town for that weekend. Have fun!!!!
Last edited by BEZ06; 04-11-2015 at 05:33 PM.
04-11-2015, 05:37 PM
#48
Drifting
We are loosing sight of the initial thread.
An AUTO ran around Daytona on a warm day and the transmission worked fantastic.
Oil and engine temps "surprisingly for Daytona" not so much. I would have thought all that cooling air would have produced lower temps.
IMHO An auto "that works correctly and does not overheat" will be a few seconds faster on a road course than a manual for anyone below a pro. I justify this by saying it took me lots of horsepower and tire to equal my Sebring times run with an A6 auto LS3 in a coupe. Just listen to those shifts and where you can get away with shifting an auto.
I am very happy to see the C7Z automatic is working out on a road course . The C6 A6 in my previous car needed a huge cooler and tune not to fry fluid, still whined loudly like it was out of fluid when hard on the brakes downshifting. Although a certain black GS is having good luck with his.
An :05 is extremely fast on street tires. That's what me and a local gray ZR1 run on Conti's using lots of power. Frank was quite a bit faster than me in a stock C6Z, and I am sure both Bob an Frank are going to be chasing a sub 2 with their C7's
Daytona is a weird mix of road course, and can't freeken believe how scary fast the banking is.
Have seen quite a few guys that thought they were fast go home after one session as the banking scared the crud out of them or messed with there equilibrium.
An AUTO ran around Daytona on a warm day and the transmission worked fantastic.
Oil and engine temps "surprisingly for Daytona" not so much. I would have thought all that cooling air would have produced lower temps.
IMHO An auto "that works correctly and does not overheat" will be a few seconds faster on a road course than a manual for anyone below a pro. I justify this by saying it took me lots of horsepower and tire to equal my Sebring times run with an A6 auto LS3 in a coupe. Just listen to those shifts and where you can get away with shifting an auto.
I am very happy to see the C7Z automatic is working out on a road course . The C6 A6 in my previous car needed a huge cooler and tune not to fry fluid, still whined loudly like it was out of fluid when hard on the brakes downshifting. Although a certain black GS is having good luck with his.
An :05 is extremely fast on street tires. That's what me and a local gray ZR1 run on Conti's using lots of power. Frank was quite a bit faster than me in a stock C6Z, and I am sure both Bob an Frank are going to be chasing a sub 2 with their C7's
Daytona is a weird mix of road course, and can't freeken believe how scary fast the banking is.
Have seen quite a few guys that thought they were fast go home after one session as the banking scared the crud out of them or messed with there equilibrium.
04-11-2015, 05:53 PM
#49
Race Director
We are loosing sight of the initial thread.
An AUTO ran around Daytona on a warm day and the transmission worked fantastic.
Oil and engine temps "surprisingly for Daytona" not so much. I would have thought all that cooling air would have produced lower temps.
.
.
.
I am very happy to see the C7Z automatic is working out on a road course . The C6 A6 in my previous car needed a huge cooler and tune not to fry fluid, still whined loudly like it was out of fluid when hard on the brakes downshifting. Although a certain black GS is having good luck with his....
An AUTO ran around Daytona on a warm day and the transmission worked fantastic.
Oil and engine temps "surprisingly for Daytona" not so much. I would have thought all that cooling air would have produced lower temps.
.
.
.
I am very happy to see the C7Z automatic is working out on a road course . The C6 A6 in my previous car needed a huge cooler and tune not to fry fluid, still whined loudly like it was out of fluid when hard on the brakes downshifting. Although a certain black GS is having good luck with his....
Yeah, sorry to run the thread off-track for a while.
Like your A6, the A6 in my student's Stingray was overheating, but Snorman's A8 seemed to work very well.
We did five sessions per day, and the student started to get the line figured out in the first session and started running harder. We started getting a transmission overtemp about 12 to 15 minutes into every session.
I was glad to see that the C7 Z06 A8 was working well in hot weather.
.
04-11-2015, 06:24 PM
#50
Drifting
You can compare speeds and shift points in this video for a good comparison. If you've never driven high banks shifting is a bit different.
This video shows what traffic can be like when driving a higher hp car at Daytona.
IMHO equal drivers that are "very" good with heal toe are going to be close to the same lap time with a ZR1 vs a C7Z manual, I'm not! The C7Z is going to have a hard time keeping a well driven ZR1 behind him after the bus stop past the start finish.
The difference between a 2:05 and sub 2:00 is huge. Bob and Frank have the track dialed and look fwd. to chasing them. Of course last time I tried I had a tank slapper?
Forgot I was lurking in the C7Z forum. Belongs in the roadrace area.
Last edited by blkbrd69; 04-11-2015 at 07:42 PM.
04-11-2015, 09:32 PM
#51
Scraping the splitter.
Thread Starter
It's an apples-to-oranges comparison when looking at a stock Stage 1 C7 Z06 on PSS's relative to a modded C6 Z06 on Continental slicks. On a more aggressive tire my corner speeds (particularly at T1, T3 and T5) would go up substantially. This is in addition to a big advantage between T1-T3, T3-T5 and T5-T6 as well as much higher speeds through the bus stop comparing my three straight 2:02's to the above posted 2:05. FWIW...a three second gap is pretty huge. Down the front straight it's over a 700' advantage. There is no denying these cars are fast on a road course.
As I said earlier ITT, I was more concerned with working on shifting strategy to see how it affected temps and managing tire pressures the first time out with a new car. I fully expect that as it sits right now, with stock PSS's, it'll run a :00-:01 next time out. That will probably be December, and it won't be in the high-80's like it was on Thursday and Friday. So it might go even faster. We'll see. The car has no bar, no harnesses and I can't wear my HANS. There is a limit to how hard I'll push it as it sits.
I likely will take the car to Sebring in two weeks (unless I decide to take my regular track car). That'll be another relatively easy weekend while I get used to it. In May it'll be Roebling Road and possibly Road Atlanta in June.
S.
As I said earlier ITT, I was more concerned with working on shifting strategy to see how it affected temps and managing tire pressures the first time out with a new car. I fully expect that as it sits right now, with stock PSS's, it'll run a :00-:01 next time out. That will probably be December, and it won't be in the high-80's like it was on Thursday and Friday. So it might go even faster. We'll see. The car has no bar, no harnesses and I can't wear my HANS. There is a limit to how hard I'll push it as it sits.
I likely will take the car to Sebring in two weeks (unless I decide to take my regular track car). That'll be another relatively easy weekend while I get used to it. In May it'll be Roebling Road and possibly Road Atlanta in June.
S.
04-12-2015, 04:59 PM
#52
great driving sean. I now have a new hero. Damn I gotta get down to that track. We are having a Atlanta motor speedway event up here on April 25 with just track it. Its a one day event so may not be worth it to you for the travel. I still gotta get some more tires before I can get back on track these tires are toast. Still working on my 18" ccw combo with Hoosiers.
Love to see that your car held up well. I was worried about my M7 car but even more worried for you A8 guys. Hopefully someone will get us a cooling mod soon. Hope to see you up here at Rd Atlanta in June.
Jeremy
Love to see that your car held up well. I was worried about my M7 car but even more worried for you A8 guys. Hopefully someone will get us a cooling mod soon. Hope to see you up here at Rd Atlanta in June.
Jeremy
04-18-2015, 03:19 AM
#54
Safety Car
Enjoying the racing videos, guys. Keep them coming!
Sean, did you ever try doing some laps in full automatic mode? Curious about how lap times and oil temps would change, vs manual mode. Coolant temps aren't horrible for a 90F day, but the oil temps would concern me above 250F. Seems simple enough to fix though, add an external oil cooler somewhere.
There is a lot of technology in the Michelin Super Sport tire, I kinda laugh when people try to play them down as "just a street tire". They are a street tire, indeed, but a MUCH better tire than most other brand street tires. Dual compound technology works wonders when cornering hard. The only negative with them, is that they get greasy and understeer after about 15 minutes of hard lapping. But, they work excellent in that 5 -15 minute zone! Almost as good as my 1st gen Sport Cup tires.
Tony
Sean, did you ever try doing some laps in full automatic mode? Curious about how lap times and oil temps would change, vs manual mode. Coolant temps aren't horrible for a 90F day, but the oil temps would concern me above 250F. Seems simple enough to fix though, add an external oil cooler somewhere.
There is a lot of technology in the Michelin Super Sport tire, I kinda laugh when people try to play them down as "just a street tire". They are a street tire, indeed, but a MUCH better tire than most other brand street tires. Dual compound technology works wonders when cornering hard. The only negative with them, is that they get greasy and understeer after about 15 minutes of hard lapping. But, they work excellent in that 5 -15 minute zone! Almost as good as my 1st gen Sport Cup tires.
Tony
04-18-2015, 09:58 AM
#55
Scraping the splitter.
Thread Starter
I didn't let the car shift automatically. This was the first (well...second after my C7 last year) time on track with an automatic and I really didn't feel at ease letting the car shift. Although I'm sure it does a fantastic job of it. I spent a few sessions getting shift points down to avoid shifting over curbing, too close to braking zones, etc. and planned on running a session in auto but just never did.
Maybe at Roebling Road in a few weeks. I'd like to take the Z06 to Sebring next week, but only have a day to get the car ready so will probably just take my regular car. Also, the shortage of the PSS's is an issue as I think I'll finish off this set of tires over two days at Sebring and very likely not be able to get a fresh set for Roebling. I'd rather run the car at Roebling.
S.
Maybe at Roebling Road in a few weeks. I'd like to take the Z06 to Sebring next week, but only have a day to get the car ready so will probably just take my regular car. Also, the shortage of the PSS's is an issue as I think I'll finish off this set of tires over two days at Sebring and very likely not be able to get a fresh set for Roebling. I'd rather run the car at Roebling.
S.
04-18-2015, 10:58 AM
#56
Race Director
I talked with Sean at the track, and he mentioned that when downshifting, the A8 seemed to keep you from over-revving. He said coming into the Bus Stop (the chicane on the back straight) that if he selected 3rd it at a high speed it apparently "stored" the "pre-select" of that gear until the revs dropped down where they'd be below redline in 3rd. That sounds like a really neat feature!!
My student (first ever track event, and had not had the car long) in a Stingray had the A6 - and he drove it in "Drive" most all the time. It was not a Z51, so I don't think it had all the cooling that the Z51 and Z06 have. We were taking it easy in the first session for him to learn the track, but when he started driving harder in the following sessions we were getting a "transmission temp high" at 12-15 minutes into each session. When accelerating in "Drive" the transmission takes the RPMs up to the redline for every shift, and that heats up the engine and the transmission. We didn't get any high engine oil/coolant temps - just the transmission.
The transmission shifted real well going up through the gears, but I wasn't real impressed with the downshifts - it would sometimes clunk and jerk when he stuck his foot down to accelerate coming out of a corner.
I tried to get him to try the manual mode and short shift at 6000 RPM so the RPMs didn't max out at the redline every time, hoping that would keep the temps down, but he hadn't had the car very long and wasn't really familiar with manual shifting the A6, and I was more interested in teaching him the line, flag stations, passing zones, track protocol, etc.
Bottom line - I imagine the A8 is like the A6 in that if you just let it shift on its own it will take it to redline for every upshift - and that will heat things up. Manual mode will let you short shift and probably keep temps cooler than the auto mode. I hope when in the auto mode the A8 downshifts a little better than the A6. From Sean's input, it sounds like downshifting in manual mode has a nice feature that will not let you over-rev the engine.
.
My student (first ever track event, and had not had the car long) in a Stingray had the A6 - and he drove it in "Drive" most all the time. It was not a Z51, so I don't think it had all the cooling that the Z51 and Z06 have. We were taking it easy in the first session for him to learn the track, but when he started driving harder in the following sessions we were getting a "transmission temp high" at 12-15 minutes into each session. When accelerating in "Drive" the transmission takes the RPMs up to the redline for every shift, and that heats up the engine and the transmission. We didn't get any high engine oil/coolant temps - just the transmission.
The transmission shifted real well going up through the gears, but I wasn't real impressed with the downshifts - it would sometimes clunk and jerk when he stuck his foot down to accelerate coming out of a corner.
I tried to get him to try the manual mode and short shift at 6000 RPM so the RPMs didn't max out at the redline every time, hoping that would keep the temps down, but he hadn't had the car very long and wasn't really familiar with manual shifting the A6, and I was more interested in teaching him the line, flag stations, passing zones, track protocol, etc.
Bottom line - I imagine the A8 is like the A6 in that if you just let it shift on its own it will take it to redline for every upshift - and that will heat things up. Manual mode will let you short shift and probably keep temps cooler than the auto mode. I hope when in the auto mode the A8 downshifts a little better than the A6. From Sean's input, it sounds like downshifting in manual mode has a nice feature that will not let you over-rev the engine.
.