glass slipper

The post above by LG says the C5/6 spindles retain the factory control arm geometry and tie rod angles which means the factory toe and camber curves are retained. It also seems LG isn't sure about the C7 spindles which makes any claim of increased camber gain suspect...let's not overhype a product.

My opinion is when Chevrolet designed the geometry of the control arms/tie rods, they had many camber/toe curves they could chose from without negatively affecting any other design factors. Having said that, why would Chevrolet pick any camber/toe curve that wasn't the best? Why did LG retain the factory control arm geometry and tie rod angles on the C5/6 spindles? Answer: they couldn't improve on the factory camber/toe curves. My thoughts are the LG C7 spindles will retain the factory camber/toe curves meaning there will be no increased camber gain over the factory spindle...again, my opinion.

Until we have the facts on the ball joint attachment points, we can at least agree the LG spindles are the best way to lower a Corvette for street or track.

glass slipper

You and SBC are correct to question such a huge decrease in lap time with just the DSC shocks/controller. I've seen many "back-to-back" comparisons that weren't apples to apples...for example, an article about the installation of coilovers will claim a huge drop in lap times. The baseline test was done with old crappy street tires, a poor alignment, and everything else factory suspension but as you read the article, you see where they also put on lightweight wheels, sticky track tires, aftermarket stabilizer bars, and a track only alignment. Then the whole gain will be attributed to the super stiff coilovers which BTW, now give a buckboard ride on the street. The same thing could've been accomplished by installing stiffer transverse leaf springs vs the coilovers and installing everything else in the list above.

I'll wait for an apples to apples test...meanwhile I'll attribute the majority of the 3 second improvement to the track alignment.

5thGear

What you guys are missing is that not everyone gets DSC suspension will shave 2 or 3 seconds. I believe an advance and very experienced level driver will take advantage of more balanced car and will squeez the extra 2 or 3 seconds. Such driver will trust the setup and will have the confidence to carry a little more corner speed and get on a gas a little sooner. An inexperienced driver will continue to do the same thing and it might be just a waste of money.
With my previous Z51, my second lap on the track was always the fastest and then as brakes fade I was going slower. Changed to BBK and I had so much more confidence in braking that after 2 track days I was able to shave 4 seconds a lap. Also, tracking motorcycle at club racer level I was able to shave 3 seconds a lap by going from stock suspension to OhIins on the first time out without realizing it since the bike was a lot more stable.
It would be a mistake to buy any component thinking it will make you shave seconds. You should do so only if you are trying to solve a problem. Example Poor-sha bought DSC to eliminate the issues he exposed in the FE6 at speed. Solving these issues could very well translate to better lap times eventually.

glass slipper

Very few of us qualify for "advanced or very experienced driver"...so what you're saying is the overwhelming majority of people should never consider buying the DSC system. Not a very good endorsement of a product if you ask me and certainly not a good indication of how many are going to be sold.

In reality, your post sounds like a lot of excuses and false reasoning. I always buy products thinking how much time it'll shave off and it's not to correct a "mistake", it's just a better product for what I'm going to use the car for. Example, sticky tires...the factory full tread street tires aren't a mistake, they just aren't suited for the best lap times when I want to use the car for racing. I would say the track alignment done to the car when the DSC system was installed had way more to do with the car being more balanced and stable as well as the reduction in lap time than the DSC system itself.

Get a professional driver (not just advanced or very experienced), optimize the alignment, and do a baseline test. Then install the DSC system, optimize the alignment for it, and do another test. Same car, same driver, same track, and same day...a true back-to-back test for an apples to apples comparison. Report the results and let the chips fall wherever...until then, anything like your post above is just a lot of postulating and posturing while any claims of lap time reduction are suspect. Especially when the lap time reduction is 3 seconds...

5thGear

Since your reasoning and argument are way off, let me ask you different questions.
Can you share with us your feedback on tracking C7 FE6 or FE7 and the behavior of suspension on the track? Which road course do you go to? Since you only buy products that helps you shave time, What modifications had helped you so far to shave time?

glass slipper

It's not my reasoning, it's yours...see the bolded below. Note: I don't agree with your reasoning but it is yours.

There is nothing wrong with my argument otherwise you would've attacked my argument instead of attempting to mount an ad hominem attack against me with irrelevant questions. Attack my ideas, not me...I am anxious to see why you think an apples to apples test to prove a product is inferior to unsubstantiated hype.

schaibaa

Rather than argue here, maybe read this thread. These have been available for vipers for a bit longer. http://driveviper.com/forums/threads/8897-****-ViperExchange-Gen-V-Active-Suspension-Package-Product-Release-****

5thGear

you won

Poor-sha

I'm of the opinion that the MR shocks the GM uses from the factory are designed primarily to provide improved ride and not improve performance. As an example, we know from the Corvette chief suspension engineer that the Z07 package has less dynamic range than the FE6 suspension. Seems like when they want to maximize performance they can't do it within the confines of dynamic adjustment.

I also think that the GM controller and associated tuning doesn't really take advantage of everything that the DSC controller does. At least the way GM describes it, all the MRSC does is respond to suspension movement. With the DSC controller you can use suspension movement, lat and long g's, vehicle speed, brake pressure, accellerator level, and even the rate of change in these values to change the mapping for individual shocks.

So from a pure tech and tuning perspective there's a lot of potential in there. Does it equate to 3 sec? I've talked to Mike about the Viper testing and the 5-6 sec improvements. This wasn't some random guy at an HPDE and I am very much inclined to believe he claims in this case. I also think seeing how dominant Mike has been in Porsche club races where the DSC suspension is premitted speaks to its effectiveness.

0NORCAL-SS

PM me i have sold many sets to guys that go to luguna seca. Ill give you feedback... and my street feedback lol

glass slipper

I read all 200+ posts...all hype and not one apples to apples test but thanks for trying. There was one guy asking legitimate questions but he kept getting misled and basically blown off. It was also revealed the spring rates are made stiffer and a particular alignment is performed just as I suspected. For something costing $7000 plus installation (on the Viper), I guess I expect too much...

The GM MR shocks are designed to improve performance too and do use the same data the DSC controller uses as well as the rate of change of that data...you present your opinion and what you think as fact when it isn't. It's these types of false statements that makes my BS meter peg and increase my desire to see an apples to apples test.

I don't have a C7 yet and one isn't even on the near horizon for me as I have 2-3 years remaining in Spain before I return home. I'm not a potential customer but it really bothers me when statements are presented as fact when they aren't, that is my only reason for even responding here. I apologize to the OP for hijacking his thread and encourage people to buy the DSC system if they believe it works as well as claimed.

thebishman

Don't you think it would be a far greater service to the forum if you actually posted your impressions?

descartesfool

I read all 9 ages as well. Funny thing is the guy on that thread who is asking the proper questions is Bruce H. and he is my long time track buddy who runs a Viper T/A. He has been asking me for about a year to check out the DSC system as he is wanting to buy but not yet convinced and that is why I talked to the owner at PRI about them. I have to agree there is no apples to apples comparison with just a damper system change. I think the DSC suspension controller with the Tractive Suspension dampers is a very interesting technology, and certainly worth investigating. A guy on a GT-R forum has just put on a set, and is at the early stage of working out the controller settings. Problem is getting the right settings in software by yourself. But the possibilities are big.

Poor-sha

Let me fill you in on at least the way I use the English language. "I think" means I am not 100% certain but am offering an opinion based on the information I have.

I certainly have never seen any information from GM that describes precisely what the MR shocks use for input, have you? Can you point me to those specifics please? I have to infer how it works from typically poor marketing statements but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed to offer an opinion.

The thing I do offer as fact is that when GM wanted to for ultimate performance in the Z07 they reduced the dynamic range of the shocks. Precisely why I can't tell you either but perhaps you know.

glass slipper

It's hard to believe you actually wrote the above and didn't comprehend it. Look at the bolded phrases...you say you give an opinion based on info you have, then admit you have zero information. It's really hard for me to understand why people do that because it comes across as BS.

Think about the inputs used by the DSC controller and then think about where they come from...the same exact plug that plugs into the stock controller. Why would GM provide all of those inputs to their controller if they were only going to use a few of them? The answer is obvious, GM does use them. So yes, I can point you to the "specifics"...buy a factory service manual and you'll be able to read all about the system and its inputs. You'll also see where the GM system has the same type of algorithm as the DSC system for drag racing/acceleration where it stiffens the rear shocks in compression and loosens the front shocks in rebound. The information is out there, you just have to have a real desire to work for it...and never use marketing statements.

I never said you shouldn't be allowed to post an opinion, read my posts again. However, when you post an opinion you need to be prepared to defend it...you act like you should be able to post anything you want and not be challenged.

schaibaa

Sorry man you are making assumptions that are false. I am not the one that has done these tests so I will not speak to specifics but I have had conversations with those that have. The stock MR controller does not respond to the majority of the data points available over the CAN bus. In addition, it doesn't push the shocks to the limit.

I'm not sure why you are so adamant that GM would be using all of this data. The entire car (just like basically everything else in the world) is a budgetary endeavor and a balancing effort with the warranty.

Poor-sha

Just because the suspension control module sits on the CAN bus doesn't mean it does anything with the information. Also, the factory service manual doesn't tell me the algorithms inside the software running in the module. Since you seem to know what it does please provide a reference so we all can learn.

schaibaa

Trying to shift back on topic here, and rather than flood Anthony's inbox with more PM's, this might help others.

Watching the video on the web site from Lou, he says that the spindles add "about a half degree .. about a quarter degree more camber" - maybe Anthony could fill in on the specifics?

Also, looking at the spindles, it looks like they have attachment points for the caster/camber gauge bracket, but could you confirm?

One other thing mentioned on the page is "Improved bump steer geometry" -- could you comment on the specifics there? Is the tie rod mount re-positioned at all?

Any issues using these spindles with 18" wheels, and potentially your brake duct kit?

Thanks!

0NORCAL-SS

To much bickering so rather keep it to pm and stay out of drama

5thGear

Good question. Many track guys are running 18" wheel setup and I had the same question.