Crawford Racing squeezes 841 RWHP from stock LT4 fuel system on full E85!!??
03-14-2018, 03:50 PM
#21
Premium Supporting Vendor
03-14-2018, 03:57 PM
#22
Former Vendor
www.crawford-racing.com/pricing
Note: Intake assumed as part of FI package or again PD blower with port provision. I think you'll see that my math adds up. MAP sensor/Flex Fuel are optional. One of the downsides of the BASE CR fueler is that its not flex fuel capable. Its one or the other. If he addresses that or if he has fixed that, the system becomes even more appealing.
I think having a lower cost entry level option helps EVERYBODY....makes it easier for the new guys to get hooked. More people = more sales.
Note: Intake assumed as part of FI package or again PD blower with port provision. I think you'll see that my math adds up. MAP sensor/Flex Fuel are optional. One of the downsides of the BASE CR fueler is that its not flex fuel capable. Its one or the other. If he addresses that or if he has fixed that, the system becomes even more appealing.
I think having a lower cost entry level option helps EVERYBODY....makes it easier for the new guys to get hooked. More people = more sales.
I understand why you feel a lower cost option is better for the market. But it actually opens the door to a larger cost deficit in the end if the customer decides they need something more than just an "entry level" system.
Once again, this was never intended to become a pissing contest but once you have brought your competitors product into a comparison that isn't using the proper information or cost, you've brought it upon yourselves.
03-14-2018, 03:58 PM
#23
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Yes as stated a few times already in this thread, the stock LPFP, HPFP and LT4 injectors were utilized for this testing, only adding the CR-Fueler and 1000cc injectors to the exsisting G1 Pro intake manifold. It is not meant as an end all be all statement that a LPFP upgrade isn't needed, but is actual real testing showing the capabillites of the stock components.
For the last time D3PE, this car in this post utilized the BASE CR-Fueler with no other options. You are making yourself look like a fool by claiming this car had anything other then my $1200 BASE kit and the 1000cc injectors with the previously installed G1 Pro intake and rails. Nowhere did anything say otherwise. Your motives have been clear to me.
My CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP kit has been the number one seller, and gives the capabilites to anything else out there with a single wideband for $2757, including flex fuel, available boost on the fly, N20 control, meth control, fuel pump and intercooler pump control and optional touchscreens etc... The Dominator bumps up to the dual widebands and huge amounts of inupts and outputs. All Holley kits use widebands directly to the ECU, meaning no external CAN boxes etc.
EarlH, you are correct in everything you have stated, the Flex Fuel is included with the Base kit, standard but still testing how effective it is.
For the last time D3PE, this car in this post utilized the BASE CR-Fueler with no other options. You are making yourself look like a fool by claiming this car had anything other then my $1200 BASE kit and the 1000cc injectors with the previously installed G1 Pro intake and rails. Nowhere did anything say otherwise. Your motives have been clear to me.
My CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP kit has been the number one seller, and gives the capabilites to anything else out there with a single wideband for $2757, including flex fuel, available boost on the fly, N20 control, meth control, fuel pump and intercooler pump control and optional touchscreens etc... The Dominator bumps up to the dual widebands and huge amounts of inupts and outputs. All Holley kits use widebands directly to the ECU, meaning no external CAN boxes etc.
EarlH, you are correct in everything you have stated, the Flex Fuel is included with the Base kit, standard but still testing how effective it is.
Last edited by Crawford-Racing.com; 03-14-2018 at 04:00 PM.
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Mikec7z (04-26-2019)
03-14-2018, 03:59 PM
#24
Melting Slicks
03-14-2018, 04:01 PM
#25
Former Vendor
Nothing like a little misinformation to throw everyone into madness.
03-14-2018, 04:18 PM
#26
Former Vendor
Yes as stated a few times already in this thread, the stock LPFP, HPFP and LT4 injectors were utilized for this testing, only adding the CR-Fueler and 1000cc injectors to the exsisting G1 Pro intake manifold. It is not meant as an end all be all statement that a LPFP upgrade isn't needed, but is actual real testing showing the capabillites of the stock components.
For the last time D3PE, this car in this post utilized the BASE CR-Fueler with no other options. You are making yourself look like a fool by claiming this car had anything other then my $1200 BASE kit and the 1000cc injectors with the previously installed G1 Pro intake and rails. Nowhere did anything say otherwise. Your motives have been clear to me.
My CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP kit has been the number one seller, and gives the capabilites to anything else out there with a single wideband for $2757, including flex fuel, available boost on the fly, N20 control, meth control, fuel pump and intercooler pump control and optional touchscreens etc... The Dominator bumps up to the dual widebands and huge amounts of inupts and outputs. All Holley kits use widebands directly to the ECU, meaning no external CAN boxes etc.
EarlH, you are correct in everything you have stated, the Flex Fuel is included with the Base kit, standard but still testing how effective it is.
For the last time D3PE, this car in this post utilized the BASE CR-Fueler with no other options. You are making yourself look like a fool by claiming this car had anything other then my $1200 BASE kit and the 1000cc injectors with the previously installed G1 Pro intake and rails. Nowhere did anything say otherwise. Your motives have been clear to me.
My CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP kit has been the number one seller, and gives the capabilites to anything else out there with a single wideband for $2757, including flex fuel, available boost on the fly, N20 control, meth control, fuel pump and intercooler pump control and optional touchscreens etc... The Dominator bumps up to the dual widebands and huge amounts of inupts and outputs. All Holley kits use widebands directly to the ECU, meaning no external CAN boxes etc.
EarlH, you are correct in everything you have stated, the Flex Fuel is included with the Base kit, standard but still testing how effective it is.
The motives of not only correcting the pricing that was used incorrectly on my product but also the correcting of pricing on yours? That's all I came in here to do.
I can say that every ACM System out there is a base system if I dont include the extra sensors that were needed too!
Tuned on E85? Needs a Flex Fuel Sensor.
Does it need a Baro/Breakout kit? Looks like its an option for your system so I would assume so.
Intake with port injector bungs? Looks like they'll need that too!
Your BASE system is $1200.00 compared to the Prospeed ACM at $2999.99 for our BASE System.
Obviously these are two different way of doing port injection control.
Your price point is much lower, but your options are far fewer with THIS controller.
All I stated was a little honesty and you can't even provide that reliably without trying to make us out to be "fools" for stating facts.
Not trying to make you blow a blood vessel over a post on Corvette forum, you just have to see what everyone else is seeing on your post.
03-14-2018, 04:22 PM
#27
Supporting Vendor
can you explain why power completely nose dives up top, post afr's and a log of the low side, there is absolutely no way it's keeping up.
03-14-2018, 04:24 PM
#28
Former Vendor
Thread Starter
Correction.
The CR-Fueler with the options listed in this post retails for $5,023.95
The Prospeed ACM retails for $6593.85 including the optional CAN Widebands, Cordes Performance Lowside Fuel System, FID 1000cc Injectors, and Communication cable.
The ACM also has options for on the fly boost control by gear/time/speed/rpm, nitrous control, methanol control, open loop fuel trimming, and fuel pump priming for use in Fore Innovations Fuel systems.
If we are comparing costs on two systems at least get the pricing correct.
The CR-Fueler with the options listed in this post retails for $5,023.95
The Prospeed ACM retails for $6593.85 including the optional CAN Widebands, Cordes Performance Lowside Fuel System, FID 1000cc Injectors, and Communication cable.
The ACM also has options for on the fly boost control by gear/time/speed/rpm, nitrous control, methanol control, open loop fuel trimming, and fuel pump priming for use in Fore Innovations Fuel systems.
If we are comparing costs on two systems at least get the pricing correct.
"Your motives have been clear to me."
The motives of not only correcting the pricing that was used incorrectly on my product but also the correcting of pricing on yours? That's all I came in here to do.
I can say that every ACM System out there is a base system if I dont include the extra sensors that were needed too!
Tuned on E85? Needs a Flex Fuel Sensor.
Does it need a Baro/Breakout kit? Looks like its an option for your system so I would assume so.
Intake with port injector bungs? Looks like they'll need that too!
Your BASE system is $1200.00 compared to the Prospeed ACM at $2999.99 for our BASE System.
Obviously these are two different way of doing port injection control.
Your price point is much lower, but your options are far fewer with THIS controller.
All I stated was a little honesty and you can't even provide that reliably without trying to make us out to be "fools" for stating facts.
Not trying to make you blow a blood vessel over a post on Corvette forum, you just have to see what everyone else is seeing on your post.
The motives of not only correcting the pricing that was used incorrectly on my product but also the correcting of pricing on yours? That's all I came in here to do.
I can say that every ACM System out there is a base system if I dont include the extra sensors that were needed too!
Tuned on E85? Needs a Flex Fuel Sensor.
Does it need a Baro/Breakout kit? Looks like its an option for your system so I would assume so.
Intake with port injector bungs? Looks like they'll need that too!
Your BASE system is $1200.00 compared to the Prospeed ACM at $2999.99 for our BASE System.
Obviously these are two different way of doing port injection control.
Your price point is much lower, but your options are far fewer with THIS controller.
All I stated was a little honesty and you can't even provide that reliably without trying to make us out to be "fools" for stating facts.
Not trying to make you blow a blood vessel over a post on Corvette forum, you just have to see what everyone else is seeing on your post.
I think everyone is on the same page now, and no vendor wants misinformantion put out there about their product.
Last edited by Crawford-Racing.com; 03-14-2018 at 04:25 PM.
03-14-2018, 04:37 PM
#29
Former Vendor
I thnk a more fair comparison to your Base kit is our CR-Fueler 2.0 Holley HP, all the available bells and whistles for closed loop fueling, boost on the fly flex fuel etc, only single wideband on that kit. It does include an air temp sensor, fuel pressure sensor and an NTK wideband sensor, for $2757. What does your Base kit include for sensors and what ECU do you use?.
I think everyone is on the same page now, and no vendor wants misinformantion put out there about their product.
I think everyone is on the same page now, and no vendor wants misinformantion put out there about their product.
We utilize the CAN-BUS communications system to grab sensor data for the ACM. IF the vehicle is NA from the factory then it will need a MAP sensor as that data is not available over CAN. We use a Woodward ECU with our own custom Firmware for ACM ECU.
Our DUAL CAN Widebands are a $776.00 option as they are only necessary for setting up open/closed loop fuel trimming which can be set up in the system. Most tuners use their own personal/dyno widebands for fueling correction.
The only wiring really needed is for the CAN Hi and Lo, Power, and Ground.
Last edited by D3PE; 03-14-2018 at 04:38 PM.
03-14-2018, 05:11 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
LOL no way that low side fuel pressure isn't in the gutter at that power level on ethanol. I routinely watch the stock low side pressure start to drop like a rock at 600 rwhp on 100% E85 and adding a port fueling solution isn't going to fix that and it's just going to drop the low side pressure even more. Say goodbye to your high pressure pump when you starve it over and over like that.
Last edited by NicD; 03-14-2018 at 05:11 PM.
03-14-2018, 06:53 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
03-14-2018, 09:49 PM
#33
Supporting Vendor
please respond to my post. why does it nose dive up top? post the afr.. i'll guarantee you it's taking a crap because pressure is in the gutter. There is no way the low side is keeping up.
03-14-2018, 11:25 PM
#34
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
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St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
Just so we are clear this is one of the Edgyvette ZO6 shop cars. The car has four mods..........PTS single turbo kit, G1Pro Street Sheet metal intake with PI ports, CR Fueler base kit with FIC 1000 LS3/7/9 injectors and Alky control meth injection (set on 2 at this point and not much of a factor)
We partnered with Chris on this project to develop a package for those that want big HP without the big price tag. These numbers are on 15PSI with full E85 and STOCK LT4 HPFP and LPFP. No cam, no low side fuel system, nothing but a single turbo and CR Fueler with injectors.
We will be selling this kit as the EV850 package for somewhere in the neighborhood of $11000 and the EV1000 package, which will add the Cordes or WXM fuel booster systems for around $13k. I will post in this and my other thread when I add the packages to the website.
We partnered with Chris on this project to develop a package for those that want big HP without the big price tag. These numbers are on 15PSI with full E85 and STOCK LT4 HPFP and LPFP. No cam, no low side fuel system, nothing but a single turbo and CR Fueler with injectors.
We will be selling this kit as the EV850 package for somewhere in the neighborhood of $11000 and the EV1000 package, which will add the Cordes or WXM fuel booster systems for around $13k. I will post in this and my other thread when I add the packages to the website.
03-14-2018, 11:56 PM
#35
Former Vendor
Member Since: Mar 2003
Location: Tampa FL
Posts: 18,673
Received 393 Likes
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286 Posts
St. Jude Donor '07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12'-'13-'14-'15
LOL no way that low side fuel pressure isn't in the gutter at that power level on ethanol. I routinely watch the stock low side pressure start to drop like a rock at 600 rwhp on 100% E85 and adding a port fueling solution isn't going to fix that and it's just going to drop the low side pressure even more. Say goodbye to your high pressure pump when you starve it over and over like that.
Make no mistake your tuner better know his **** when pushing the car to the limit while maintaining safe fuel pressure. Another example of why Edgyvette jumped at the chance to work with Chris Crawford. This guy is next level. https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...fe-friday.html
Last edited by Cajun @ Edgyvette; 03-15-2018 at 08:32 AM.
03-15-2018, 01:29 AM
#37
For what it’s worth I really like his kit... never met him but I know he’s a stand up guy.. been on the Hp tuner forum for years with him 👍🏻...
if I ever do PI on my car I plan to use his kit
if I ever do PI on my car I plan to use his kit
03-15-2018, 10:56 AM
#39
Burning Brakes
Afterwards you then say that it also has meth injection on it which again makes this post not even close to being factual, but it's something that we (tuners) know isn't possible anyways because we've been there and done that. Not sure what the LT5 has to do with this post either since it's rated for another 105 horsepower over the LT4 not on ANY ethanol.
03-15-2018, 11:11 AM
#40
Melting Slicks
Yes it's been done before and we've been pushing the limits of the stock low pressure side for years. We all know how much fuel the low side is capable of moving and a port injection system doesn't change that.
Afterwards you then say that it also has meth injection on it which again makes this post not even close to being factual, but it's something that we (tuners) know isn't possible anyways because we've been there and done that. Not sure what the LT5 has to do with this post either since it's rated for another 105 horsepower over the LT4 not on ANY ethanol.
Afterwards you then say that it also has meth injection on it which again makes this post not even close to being factual, but it's something that we (tuners) know isn't possible anyways because we've been there and done that. Not sure what the LT5 has to do with this post either since it's rated for another 105 horsepower over the LT4 not on ANY ethanol.
Max HP (LT4 blower): 700whp/820 BHP
SC->Turbo Efficiency: 100whp/120 BHP (blower requires 100+hp to turn)
New Max: 800whp/940 BHP
Note: numbers are directionally correct
Cars will vary in power to some extent 20-40whp from dyno to dyno. Is there enough efficiency in the turbo (at higher boost levels) to drive the difference? Interesting topic to be sure. The stock LT4 1.7 starts to be less efficient (e.g. less hp/lb of boost) as its spun faster.
Last edited by Earl H; 03-15-2018 at 11:14 AM.
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