I was impressed 13 years here and it was the top melt down with more MELT than an unplugged ice cream cooler. One of the top so far on the forum in a single thread. Good stuff!
Cannot wait to get the meth kit installed on my stock tune to save my warranty so I can do 185 in 40 degree weather and avoid the 106 code I have so worried about that.

 

Mistake #1. Assuming I haven't done it.

Mistake #2 Assuming I dont know how CAT is calculated.

Mistake # 3 You state "What it's set to in the PE table is irrelevant when the calibration guy is handed a MAF table that he has to use and he plugs in whatever number produces the desired AFR in that table". This discussion was about getting some benefits WITHOUT tuning. Please stay on topic. Any decent tuner doesn't rape a PE table when tuning anyway...I thought all those clowns were out of business by now.

Mistake #4 You state all Z06's run in the mid 11s for from the factory? So you are asserting that GM set the AFR in the PE table at 12.1-12.4 because they wanted it to be in the mid 11's before COT?........strange.

Mistake #5 You state "Again, the difference between somebody guessing and somebody who has actually done it. The IAT2/MAT is pretty much unaffected when spraying water or meth and it has nearly the same rise even with an M15 nozzle on there. Cooling down combustion temps vs cooling down the IAT2/MAT is the difference and why it applies to the Z06." Are you seriously trying to convince us water and/or Meth doesn't cool IAT or MAT? Really? The more likely scenario is you are not logging both MAT and Both IAT parameters for IAT and MAT. (4 different parameters, 2 for each). I say this because if your MAT isn't affected when you spray you could be logging the calculated MAT. Try logging both MATs and let us know if one of them is affected when your spray. ;-)

Mistake #6 You directly contradict yourself. In post #75 you state "Spraying 100% water will cool down combustion temps and help prevent detonation but without adjusting timing it will also SLIGHTLY drop horsepower assuming no knock or timing retard in the first place." In post # 80 you state "When you are spraying something into the engine that is composed of 50% oxygen it doesn't have a choice but to increase in power." So which is it? last I checked water was 88% oxygen.

 

Mistake #6 You directly contradict yourself. In post #75 you state "Spraying 100% water will cool down combustion temps and help prevent detonation but without adjusting timing it will also SLIGHTLY drop horsepower assuming no knock or timing retard in the first place." In post # 80 you state "When you are spraying something into the engine that is composed of 50% oxygen it doesn't have a choice but to increase in power." So which is it? last I checked water was 88% oxygen.


This is the only point I am going to address. Yes water is 88% oxygen by weight but unless we are running a nuclear fission based engine, you are not using that oxygen. The oxygen in hydrocarbons like methanol contribute to explosive combustion, a product of which is water. Water is not part of combustion. Throw water on a fire and what happens? Not a bigger flame, it goes out. That is because it is not combustable, like methanol.

 

You clearly haven't because you wouldn't be saying these things. Well it's either that or you don't understand it which is the only other alternative.

Oh you do, please share the equation with all of us because nobody knows it except the calibration engineer and he isn't sharing. The only thing that you can go off of is to watch the calculated cat temperature and it doesn't change whether I'm spraying meth or not, period. If you had actually done a back to back test you would see this and wouldn't be talking right now.

Yes the factory will drop down into the 11s AFR before COT, once COT hits it's deep into the 10s. We are talking about what happens without tuning, please pay attention. I mentioned PE table because it's not what the calibration engineer is actually commanding so you can't look at it that way, GM didn't even though that was their intention.

No the calibration guys didn't set the PE table based on what is being commanded, it's based on what they were actually trying to hit because they can't alter the MAF table they are handed thus my comment.

Holy hell, you clearly haven't even tried doing a back to back test on this. This isn't a gen4 ECM were are dealing with, the Gen 5 ECMs calculate the MAT value, period. The IAT2 doesn't respond well with meth/water injection which drives the MAT calculated value so no it doesn't change it. This is clear as day to anybody who has actually tried a back to back test on this. Also you apparently don't know the difference between a broadcast pid and a polled pid for the IAT pids, there is only a 2nd pid for MAT and the only one that matters is what the ECM references IAT timing retard off of so it's the only one worth logging which is the 2nd one in the list as far as HP Tuners goes anyways. The 1st PID has a serious lag to it and doesn't correspond to the other tables like timing retard, etc.

Bejezus this is ignorance at it's finest, water is not fuel and will not act as such in the combustion process. Oxygenated race gas has become very popular over the years in direct response to alcohol based fuels because alcohol based fuels were kicking their *** in the power department. Q16, Torco 99, any oxygenated fuel is fuel companies trying to make more power with their fuel.

 

What are you 12? I am guessing your IQ is in mid double digits.....

 

I'm known as Mr Got it wrong! Then I'm the 12 year old?
More like your the one doing just what a 12 year old would do! But I'm guessing your more like 10!
No beef with you! But feel free to go play on the freeway!

 

im still waiting for there to be no one left for NicD to try to pick appart, so he can finally find some time to tune a meth injection system to sell to the masses without them needing to tune their cars, so they can avoid voiding their warranties, and he can get earn some money and self esteem and get one of these cars all tricked out for himself instead of only tune other people's, and then he won't get as much pleasure out of coming in here and trying to tell everyone their ideas will never work... instead, he will come in looking for the next great idea, and give other people compliments when they have them and give him an opportunity to make money on their ideas.

I know.. i know... that's impossible. The array of perfect sensors cant see the meth to prevent the knock... i know... the knock sensor does not do anything, nor does preventing knock from actually occurring... i know... i know.

 

TurboLX where are you?

 

DUDE! MORE off base wild talk that now are claimed as idea's? Then how can someone expect to get warranty service at the GM dealer with the METH kit hanging under the hood? YOUR IDEA will never work and is crazy talk. You show daily you are more than few bricks short of a load. Then the members who debate your wild ideas you are adding up and they all have in common that you think they are all wrong on many subjects. When the one all wrong is you! What happened to your thread where you were adding rubber tubes to the intercoolers???? Then the full page melt downs when someone disagrees with you!


Your wild talk is the best satire we have ever had here! That says a lot!

 

Who are you to talk?

No, Mike was not connecting rubber tubes to the intercoolers. The concept was for air entrapment at various points in the system, to accumulate and bleed off any air they trapped. The concept may have been over your head, but was and is an interesting idea.

 

GM has 2 brass air blees The concept???? Fascinating!!!! Very interesting idea! Only to you Warp his 1 man fan club!

 

I don't know what "air blees" are (maybe a donkey phart?), but it would appear that the air bleeding procedures Mike and Bill Dearborn have used have resulted in benefits.

I highly suspect that hardly anyone here is impressed with your various forms of posturing, including your "user name".

 

You are not smart. I made a video so even the dumbest people could follow along and understand, and i still lost you. Stop commenting in our threads please, no one benefits from you being here.

 

WOW!!! So many facktarded on here!! Crazy!

I would not spray meth, let alone water/ meth on stock tune! That doesn't means it can't be done. But to me all the hassle of installing a meth kit, and risking warranty without all the benefits doesnt woth it imo. Because, if you ever need warranty claims on the motor, GM will sure try to unload all the blame on the water injection.

 

Some people are dumber than either you or I had previously realized.

 

You are to funny.

No one here has ever claimed water was fuel.


I give logical explanations for everything I discussed and all you do is claim I don't know what I am talking about.

Problem with guys like you is you think your experiences are the law. Why all the anger anyway?



Take the 2 examples below. Here you clearly don’t know the answer because you haven’t done your homework and want me to educate you. Yet you have argued for the past week.



1. You state, "Holy hell, you clearly haven't even tried doing a back to back test on this. This isn't a gen4 ECM were are dealing with, the Gen 5 ECMs calculate the MAT value, period."



You Sir are confused or just don't know what you are talking about.

On the LT4 one MAT is calculated AND one MAT is taken real time in the manifold. The first photo is the MAP sensor on the front of the supercharger, the second is the TMAP (temperature/MAP) sensor on the rear of the supercharger. One of the 2 MAT readings in HP tuners reads directly from this TMAP sensor. This sensor reads from under the internal inter-cooler bricks right before the intake charge heads down to the intake valve. It is the temperature which is used to adjust the IAT timing table in the Z06 tune. The other MAT reading is not a reading at all and is a calculated MAT just as you said. This particular MAT will not change from spraying anything because it is calculated from IAT1 located in the MAF sensor and several other parameters which may not be affected if you spray behind the MAF sensor. This is why I asked you which one you are logging? Now calm down and take your time and read this several times. Look at the photos. Its not about being right, its about getting this right for others. Now ask yourself why would GM locate a TMAP sensor right here instead of a plain old MAP sensor (like the one up front in the first photo) if they weren’t using the temperature from the TMAP sensor? Doesn’t make sense does it? You can argue till the cows come home but it is what it is.






2. "Please share the equation with all of us because nobody knows it except the calibration engineer."



In my circles we can't share exactly how its calculated but it is very similar to these 22 steps plus or minus a few.

I don’t expect you or anyone else to read through it all as its pretty lengthy. But for the gallery's entertainment I will humor you.



Remember just because you don’t know...... doesn’t mean I don’t know.

None of us knows everything and no one is right all the time, perhaps you should show a little more respect to others. We all have something to add here.

You or anyone here can believe what you want. Your insults won't change anything.



Calculating and monitoring catalyst temperature:

1. A method for monitoring the temperature of a catalyst in a catalytic converter in an exhaust system, the method comprising the steps of:

determining a first catalyst temperature;

determining a stabilized catalyst temperature which includes the steps of determining a quantity of unfueled engine cylinders, and calculating a term to account for a quantity of air pumped through an engine without a corresponding release of combustion energy based on the quantity of unfueled engine cylinders; and

determining an updated catalyst temperature based on the first catalyst temperature, the stabilized catalyst temperature and an update fraction.

2. The method of claim 1, wherein the update fraction is based on a flow of gas through the catalyst and a throttle state.

3. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the step of determining a steady state base temperature of the catalyst, the steady state base temperature being based on a manifold absolute pressure and an engine rotational speed.

4. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the step of determining a convection cooling correction term based on a vehicle speed.

5. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature further includes the steps of:

determining an ambient air temperature;

calculating a difference between a reference temperature and the ambient air temperature; and

calculating an ambient cooling correction term based on the difference between the reference temperature and the ambient air temperature.

6. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the step of determining a heat-sink term to account for an amount of heat retained by the exhaust system.

7. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining an actual fuel/air ratio;

calculating a difference between a stoichiometric fuel/air ratio and the actual fuel/air ratio; and

calculating an enrichment cooling correction term based on the difference between the stoichiometric fuel/air ratio and the actual fuel/air ratio.

8. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining a theoretical spark delivery angle that provides a maximum brake torque;

determining an actual spark delivery angle;

calculating a difference between the theoretical spark delivery angle and the actual spark delivery angle; and

calculating a spark angle heating rate correction term based on the difference between the theoretical spark delivery angle and the actual spark delivery angle.

9. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining a rate of misfire; and

calculating a misfire heating correction term based on the rate of misfire.

10. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining if the first catalyst temperature exceeds a predetermined catalyst light-off temperature; and

if the first catalyst temperature does not exceed the predetermined catalyst light-off temperature, excluding an exothermic heating rate correction term to compensate for a quantity of heat not produced by an exothermic reaction within the catalytic converter.

11. The method of claim 1, wherein the step of determining a first catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining if the catalytic converter has been continuously used;

if the catalytic converter has been continuously used, setting the first catalyst temperature equal to the updated catalyst temperature calculated in an iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration; and

otherwise, calculating the first catalyst temperature with a model that considers the updated catalyst temperature calculated in a last iteration of the method immediately prior to a time at which the catalytic converter was not being used, an ambient air temperature and an amount by which the catalyst has cooled.

12. The method of claim 11, wherein the step of calculating the first catalyst temperature with the model includes the steps of:

calculating a first intermediate quantity by subtracting the ambient air temperature from the updated catalyst temperature calculated in the iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration;

calculating a second intermediate quantity by multiplying the first intermediate quantity by a cool down fraction that approximates an amount by which the catalyst has cooled down based on a length of time for which the catalytic converter was not being used; and

calculating the first catalyst temperature by subtracting the second intermediate quantity from the updated catalyst temperature calculated in the iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration.

13. A method for monitoring the temperature of a catalyst in a catalytic converter of an exhaust system, the method comprising the steps of:

determining a first catalyst temperature;

determining a first portion of a stabilized catalyst temperature based on a quantity of fueled engine cylinders and a steady state base temperature of the catalyst, the steady state base temperature based on a manifold absolute pressure and an engine rotational speed;

determining a second portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature based on a quantity of unfueled engine cylinders; and

calculating an updated catalyst temperature based on the first catalyst temperature, the first and second portions of the stabilized catalyst temperature and an update fraction.

14. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature further includes the steps of:

determining a convection cooling correction term based on a vehicle speed; and

adding the convection cooling correction term to the steady state base temperature.

15. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature further includes the steps of:

determining an ambient air temperature;

calculating a difference between a reference temperature and the ambient air temperature;

calculating an ambient cooling correction term based on the difference between the reference temperature and the ambient air temperature; and

adding the ambient cooling correction term to the steady state base temperature.

16. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining a heat-sink term to account for an amount of heat retained by the exhaust system; and

adding the heat-sink term to the steady state base temperature.

17. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining an actual fuel/air ratio;

calculating a difference between a stoichiometric fuel/air ratio and the actual fuel/air ratio;

calculating an enrichment cooling correction term based on the difference between the stoichiometric fuel/air ratio and the actual fuel/air ratio; and

adding the enrichment cooling correction term to the steady state base temperature.

18. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining a theoretical spark delivery angle that provides a maximum brake torque;

determining an actual spark delivery angle;

calculating a difference between the theoretical spark delivery angle and the actual spark delivery angle;

calculating a spark angle heating rate correction term based on the difference between the theoretical spark delivery angle and the actual spark delivery angle; and

adding the spark angle heating rate correction term to the steady state base temperature.

19. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining a rate of misfire;

calculating a misfire heating correction term based on the rate of misfire; and

adding the misfire heating correction term to the steady state base temperature.

20. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining the first portion of the stabilized catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining if the first catalyst temperature exceeds a predetermined catalyst light-off temperature; and

if the first catalyst temperature does not exceed the predetermined catalyst light-off temperature, subtracting an exothermic heating correction term from the steady state base temperature, the exothermic heating correction term compensating for a quantity of heat not produced by an exothermic reaction within the catalytic converter.

21. The method of claim 13, wherein the step of determining a first catalyst temperature includes the steps of:

determining if the catalytic converter has been continuously used;

if the catalytic converter has been continuously used, setting the first catalyst temperature equal to the updated catalyst temperature calculated in an iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration; and

otherwise, calculating the first catalyst temperature with a model that considers the updated catalyst temperature calculated in a last iteration of the method immediately prior to a time at which the catalytic converter was not being used, an ambient air temperature and an amount by which the catalyst has cooled.

22. The method of claim 21, wherein the step of calculating the first catalyst temperature with the model includes the steps of:

calculating a first intermediate quantity by subtracting the ambient air temperature from the updated catalyst temperature calculated in the iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration;

calculating a second intermediate quantity by multiplying the first intermediate quantity by a cool down fraction which approximates an amount by which the catalyst has cooled down based on a length of time for which the catalytic converter was not being used; and

calculating the first catalyst temperature by subtracting the second intermediate quantity from the updated catalyst temperature calculated in the iteration of the method immediately preceding the present iteration.

 

Your position is understandable. I wouldn't either. But one could do so safely. (100% water not talking any meth LOL).
For the most part water is for cooling and Meth is for extra fueling. A 50/50 combination of the 2 has been proven to be the safest way to add the most power AND the most cooling.
However some folks may just want to recover timing lost due to high IAT/MAT.
Since water doesn't change the AFR very much a tune is not absolutely necessary if you spray 100% water.

I am in no way saying you don't need to verify the results of the install and calibrate the amount of water to ensure the results are acceptable.
I am in no way saying you cant gain more timing and power on top of the factory tunes timing with 100% water if you tune for it. That will depend on where MBT timing actually is.
I am in no way claiming water/meth or 100% Meth wont yield more power than 100% water if one tunes for each and compares. 100% water would yield the least and 100% Meth would yield the most hp all variables remaining constant.

 

Here the troll comes again!
Back up in the threads and see how you spell sea level. How about ? "see" level! Then jump me for typo error! Shows just who the dumb one really is! ! Since you don't actually know much about the C7. You do the next best thing to you which is troll and trash threads!
Busy with 10 year old type personal attacks and condescending remarks!

 

I agree just my point then the dealer will void the warranty with a meth tank installed and injected into your blower. A real bonehead idea!

 

yeah, i think the stated goal was to take it off before returning to the dealer for a claim