E85 Requirements
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 233
Likes: 4
From: Clayton, NC
E85 Requirements
I know there has been a lot of debate over this, but looking for some clarity/general info.
My car currently has ported blower/snout, 103mm throttle body, 2.3 upper pulley, borla x-pipe, afe intake, dsx flex fuel sensor. I was told by the shop that tuned my car recently that I could run a blend of ethanol by adding heads/cam, & dsx aux fuel pump which is what I planned to do. I reached out to another local shop to get a quote & I am being told for my car to handle any ethanol, I need to get injectors & full meth injection which is not something I had planned to do.
What are the true requirements to run an ethanol blend? Looking for something in that E40-E50 range. First time adding E to a car, so any advice is appreciated.
My car currently has ported blower/snout, 103mm throttle body, 2.3 upper pulley, borla x-pipe, afe intake, dsx flex fuel sensor. I was told by the shop that tuned my car recently that I could run a blend of ethanol by adding heads/cam, & dsx aux fuel pump which is what I planned to do. I reached out to another local shop to get a quote & I am being told for my car to handle any ethanol, I need to get injectors & full meth injection which is not something I had planned to do.
What are the true requirements to run an ethanol blend? Looking for something in that E40-E50 range. First time adding E to a car, so any advice is appreciated.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 233
Likes: 4
From: Clayton, NC
I contacted the shop (RPM here in Raleigh, NC) about adding heads/cam, 2" headers, lower pulley & a heat exchanger. Hoping to get around that 725-750rwhp. Is that realistic without adding meth? I've heard a lot of nightmares when it comes to meth.
Former Vendor
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 267
From: Houston Texas
The way we do the kit....No problem at all. You might be able to run E50. I would just do the meth. few do a Prometh C7 trunk tank in coco with Alky control Meth system.
Billy
Billy
Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 691
Likes: 156
From: Huntsville, AL
You can get additional fuel with the cam swap by changing the HPFP drive lobe, that with the DSX low side and your previous mods should be able to get you to your goal w/o meth.
I'm not sure why so many people are scared to run meth honestly. I've had a dual nozzle kit on my car for a year now with zero issues at all. Added the DSX Low side pump so that I can run full E85 so that I don't have to deal with the hassle of blending.
I'm not sure why so many people are scared to run meth honestly. I've had a dual nozzle kit on my car for a year now with zero issues at all. Added the DSX Low side pump so that I can run full E85 so that I don't have to deal with the hassle of blending.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 233
Likes: 4
From: Clayton, NC
You can get additional fuel with the cam swap by changing the HPFP drive lobe, that with the DSX low side and your previous mods should be able to get you to your goal w/o meth.
I'm not sure why so many people are scared to run meth honestly. I've had a dual nozzle kit on my car for a year now with zero issues at all. Added the DSX Low side pump so that I can run full E85 so that I don't have to deal with the hassle of blending.
I'm not sure why so many people are scared to run meth honestly. I've had a dual nozzle kit on my car for a year now with zero issues at all. Added the DSX Low side pump so that I can run full E85 so that I don't have to deal with the hassle of blending.
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Verdad Gallardo
Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 691
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From: Huntsville, AL
That's a pretty comprehensive list of the parts that will be required and the labor rate doesn't seem to be too outrageous. If they say that will get you to where you want to be I say go for it. I will recommend that once that first 5 gal of meth is used up to save the jug. I have a couple of engine builders near me that keep a 55 gal drum of M1 on hand and will refill my jug for $25. It's way cheaper than buying a new one from VP or a tuner shop, and hopefully you can find someone in your area that will do the same.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 837
Likes: 388
From: Olathe KS
You just need the DSX sensor and a tune and you'll be able to run around E35-40 max most likely depending on how good your tuner is. I wouldn't use either of those shops based on their advice, personally. If you want to run more like E50+ you would need a cam to overdrive the HPFP OR meth, not necessarily both and heads are not needed unless you want them. If your car is a pre-19 you may need the DSX low-side aux pump as well as the cam if you don't want meth and do want E50 so that's optional. Heads aren't required and nor is meth to get to E50. If you did the flexfuel sensor and meth right now you wouldn't need anything else to run E50 as an alternative depending on how much meth you want to spray.
I'm running 2.3 upper, stock blower (no port), stock TB, 2" LTs, flexfuel, and 5" CAI (no meth). I have a 19 Z so the low side is from the ZR1 and flows 20% more than pre-19s and my hpfp ran out of juice just shy of E40 at 685/711 to the wheels, low side was fine still. You don't have headers but do have a ported blower so I'd expect your results to be similar but you may be able to run a little more E content than me depending on when your hpfp sucks your low-side dry if you're running a pre-19.
I'm running 2.3 upper, stock blower (no port), stock TB, 2" LTs, flexfuel, and 5" CAI (no meth). I have a 19 Z so the low side is from the ZR1 and flows 20% more than pre-19s and my hpfp ran out of juice just shy of E40 at 685/711 to the wheels, low side was fine still. You don't have headers but do have a ported blower so I'd expect your results to be similar but you may be able to run a little more E content than me depending on when your hpfp sucks your low-side dry if you're running a pre-19.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,048
Likes: 1,478
From: South Florida
Both shops are technically correct. It's just the second shop doesn't want to rely on Meth for the additional fueling need because if your meth system fails you are at risk of damaging or blowing the motor.
For you mods, you can run full pump E70ish if you add a 2x30 nozzle meth system. You can probably get away with 2x18 on E50. The question you need to determine is, do you want to mix at the pump? Or would you rather just fill up with E? Also, Do you want to rely on Meth as fuel or do you only want to use it as a cooling agent?
I just tuned a Z06 with a ported blower, 2.3 upper, NW103, Cordes 5inch intake, ARH 2 inch headers, JMS low side BAP, dual nozzle meth kit and DSX flex fuel sensor. Car runs full pump E70-E75, no mixing and the meth system isn't maxed out yet. However, this setup does rely on the meth for additional fuel. Car ran a 5.7s 60-130 Draggy time as well the same night we tuned it. Car had a full tank of gas and two passengers.
For you mods, you can run full pump E70ish if you add a 2x30 nozzle meth system. You can probably get away with 2x18 on E50. The question you need to determine is, do you want to mix at the pump? Or would you rather just fill up with E? Also, Do you want to rely on Meth as fuel or do you only want to use it as a cooling agent?
I just tuned a Z06 with a ported blower, 2.3 upper, NW103, Cordes 5inch intake, ARH 2 inch headers, JMS low side BAP, dual nozzle meth kit and DSX flex fuel sensor. Car runs full pump E70-E75, no mixing and the meth system isn't maxed out yet. However, this setup does rely on the meth for additional fuel. Car ran a 5.7s 60-130 Draggy time as well the same night we tuned it. Car had a full tank of gas and two passengers.
Thread Starter
Instructor
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 233
Likes: 4
From: Clayton, NC
Both shops are technically correct. It's just the second shop doesn't want to rely on Meth for the additional fueling need because if your meth system fails you are at risk of damaging or blowing the motor.
For you mods, you can run full pump E70ish if you add a 2x30 nozzle meth system. You can probably get away with 2x18 on E50. The question you need to determine is, do you want to mix at the pump? Or would you rather just fill up with E? Also, Do you want to rely on Meth as fuel or do you only want to use it as a cooling agent?
I just tuned a Z06 with a ported blower, 2.3 upper, NW103, Cordes 5inch intake, ARH 2 inch headers, JMS low side BAP, dual nozzle meth kit and DSX flex fuel sensor. Car runs full pump E70-E75, no mixing and the meth system isn't maxed out yet. However, this setup does rely on the meth for additional fuel. Car ran a 5.7s 60-130 Draggy time as well the same night we tuned it. Car had a full tank of gas and two passengers.
For you mods, you can run full pump E70ish if you add a 2x30 nozzle meth system. You can probably get away with 2x18 on E50. The question you need to determine is, do you want to mix at the pump? Or would you rather just fill up with E? Also, Do you want to rely on Meth as fuel or do you only want to use it as a cooling agent?
I just tuned a Z06 with a ported blower, 2.3 upper, NW103, Cordes 5inch intake, ARH 2 inch headers, JMS low side BAP, dual nozzle meth kit and DSX flex fuel sensor. Car runs full pump E70-E75, no mixing and the meth system isn't maxed out yet. However, this setup does rely on the meth for additional fuel. Car ran a 5.7s 60-130 Draggy time as well the same night we tuned it. Car had a full tank of gas and two passengers.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,048
Likes: 1,478
From: South Florida
This is why so many people add meth. It is insanely expensive to upgrade the fuel system on the Gen V platform to avoid meth. I think all of the parts are way over priced but none of the vendors will agree or drop their price. They keep sighting R&D costs...which may be true. But I bet if the cost was half the price you would have more than twice the buyers.
Your 2013 Camaro isn't Direct Injection, the DI motors are a whole different ballgame and not comparable.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,715
Likes: 343
From: Norman OK
Meth is nothing more than a bandaid, the shop that said you need injectors has zero clue and is trying to sell you parts. If you have a Z06 you already have plenty injectors for up to around 900rwhp.
I have a 19 C7Z, I only have the Cordes 5" CAI , Mamo V2 PTB, AWE catless x-pipe, Coirdes expansion tank, Griptech upper pulley, DSX E85 kit and tuning. With this combo I am making right at 700rwhp and run up to E60.
I have a 19 C7Z, I only have the Cordes 5" CAI , Mamo V2 PTB, AWE catless x-pipe, Coirdes expansion tank, Griptech upper pulley, DSX E85 kit and tuning. With this combo I am making right at 700rwhp and run up to E60.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,048
Likes: 1,478
From: South Florida
Meth is nothing more than a bandaid, the shop that said you need injectors has zero clue and is trying to sell you parts. If you have a Z06 you already have plenty injectors for up to around 900rwhp.
I have a 19 C7Z, I only have the Cordes 5" CAI , Mamo V2 PTB, AWE catless x-pipe, Coirdes expansion tank, Griptech upper pulley, DSX E85 kit and tuning. With this combo I am making right at 700rwhp and run up to E60.
I have a 19 C7Z, I only have the Cordes 5" CAI , Mamo V2 PTB, AWE catless x-pipe, Coirdes expansion tank, Griptech upper pulley, DSX E85 kit and tuning. With this combo I am making right at 700rwhp and run up to E60.
That combo wouldn't be able to survive on E60 in a location close to sea level like Florida. The high side would run out by E40-E50 here depending on how far you were willing to let the high side pressure drop. If you live in a high altitude area, then this makes sense.
Safety Car
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,715
Likes: 343
From: Norman OK
My view still stands, meth is a band aid. Seen way too many cars lose an engine due to the meth pump going out. Like you said though, unless you are willing to spend $4k or more on injectors and upgrade the cam the options are very limited. Hopefully now that someone has cracked the C7 ZR1 ECU maybe it will bring other options to the table for a dual fuel system.
Safety Car
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,048
Likes: 1,478
From: South Florida
I completely agree if meth is used as additional fueling it is a risk(band-aid). Some will take the risk some will not. The other option is to stay on pump 93 and use meth injection for cooling and octane boost. This will add power as well over straight 93 and not risk going lean if the meth system fails.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 818
Likes: 444
From: Maumelle, AR
Please don't waste your money on all that stuff. You should be upgrading the undersized heat pump of a supercharger before any of that.
I've got a 2300 with a 70mm pulley, DSX low side, and DSX flex fuel sensor. I see the high side start to drop in the upper rpm at E50 so I run E40 at the track (easy blend of 50/50 93E10 and "E85", which is actually E70) and just straight 93E10 on the street.
I've got a 2300 with a 70mm pulley, DSX low side, and DSX flex fuel sensor. I see the high side start to drop in the upper rpm at E50 so I run E40 at the track (easy blend of 50/50 93E10 and "E85", which is actually E70) and just straight 93E10 on the street.