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This is such bullshit about GM not caring about the ring time. Then why the hell do they even bother going there? They should never even bother in the first place. You cant just go all the way there, have an absolutely terrible half assed planing and then say you cant post the times and shrug your shoulders!
As with EVERYTHING GM has done about Corvette (and to be honest generally for domestic sports cars), there are nice ideas but the execution is so poor. The cooling in Z06, the lack of ring lap time in Z06 and now this. The problem with these affordable domestic cars is these companies never bother to go that 3% extra to make 97% the full 100%. Like those plastic front wheel fender extensions in z06 or extremely restrictive front bumper flow or the 7th gear that is in the awkward position or the rev match buttons on the steering wheel for M7 because “it wasnt cost effective to remove them” such a domestic move (porsche would never make these amateurish mistakes in their flagship cars).
but you know what the problem is? Problem is (or maybe its just the reality) the people who buy the corvette. There is a reason why corvette has a pure chrome wheel option (do you see one in a gt3?) or the z06 had 650hp/650 torque plaque (thank god zr1 doesnt have that) like people buying that car had to have that assurance.
Not painting the wheel spats is pretty amateur. I dont know why they didn't just make them part of the fender considering they made a whole new fender anyway.
I'm not sure what your gripe about rev match paddles is though.
Anyway, the Ring is unique in that you can't just put a great driver on it and they'll find a way to get around fast within 10 laps. You need a pro driver that drives the ring a lot and is a good ring driver.
Not painting the wheel spats is pretty amateur. I dont know why they didn't just make them part of the fender considering they made a whole new fender anyway.
I'm not sure what your gripe about rev match paddles is though.
Anyway, the Ring is unique in that you can't just put a great driver on it and they'll find a way to get around fast within 10 laps. You need a pro driver that drives the ring a lot and is a good ring driver.
the paddles are there for A8. The fact that the M7 has them is an afterthought. There doesnt exist a car in the world where pedals on a steering controls the rev matching. There was a video interview and even the engineer from gm admitted that this was a cost saving measure as it would cost them a lot of money to a) remove the pedals and b) wire up the logic in the infotainment/separate button somewhere.
this is no different than dodge putting a fake looking headlight on the opposite side of the one with a hole for air intake.
This is such bullshit about GM not caring about the ring time. Then why the hell do they even bother going there? They should never even bother in the first place. You cant just go all the way there, have an absolutely terrible half assed planing and then say you cant post the times and shrug your shoulders!
As with EVERYTHING GM has done about Corvette (and to be honest generally for domestic sports cars), there are nice ideas but the execution is so poor. The cooling in Z06, the lack of ring lap time in Z06 and now this. The problem with these affordable domestic cars is these companies never bother to go that 3% extra to make 97% the full 100%. Like those plastic front wheel fender extensions in z06 or extremely restrictive front bumper flow or the 7th gear that is in the awkward position or the rev match buttons on the steering wheel for M7 because “it wasnt cost effective to remove them” such a domestic move (porsche would never make these amateurish mistakes in their flagship cars).
but you know what the problem is? Problem is (or maybe its just the reality) the people who buy the corvette. There is a reason why corvette has a pure chrome wheel option (do you see one in a gt3?) or the z06 had 650hp/650 torque plaque (thank god zr1 doesnt have that) like people buying that car had to have that assurance.
I don’t see a chrome wheel option for a 911. I see an outdated, ugly, overpriced car! Think I’m wrong? Park a 911 next to a corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghin, etc at a car show, and no one will notice the 911! Would not own one if given to me!
I don’t see a chrome wheel option for a 911. I see an outdated, ugly, overpriced car! Think I’m wrong? Park a 911 next to a corvette, Ferrari, Lamborghin, etc at a car show, and no one will notice the 911! Would not own one if given to me!
I have seen porsches parked next to other sports cars. I see it all the time at the track. They're beautiful cars. Every time I go into the garage at the track and see the GT3 RS, GT4 and even the "boring" 718, I drool.
A few weeks ago when I brought my friends out to the track.
Last edited by village idiot; 04-21-2018 at 09:54 PM.
Usually if you are learning a track or tuning a car for complicated track you are not going to go ***** out through the entire course every lap. That's especially true for a track as long as the ring. You're going to go out and work on certain corners each lap to see what the data shows. The result is that these test/learning laps are not overall going to be stellar.
I'm pretty confident that when GM sets out on a flyer, assuming no major issues, it will be stellar and a lot faster than a 7:12. In fact, I think the fact that there was a 7:12 lap where they weren't trying to set a flyer is pretty astounding.
FWIW, I do think ring times matter as a benchmark. Even C&D in setting up the Lightning Lap said they chose VIR Grand Course because it was the closest thing we had in the US to the ring. That said, the ring time won't have any impact on my buying decision just like the lack of a ring time didn't affect how much I loved both C7 Z06s I owned and tracked extensively.
Also, I think Porsche's are wonderful cars and I've owned a couple. I don't understand all the hate.
Usually if you are learning a track or tuning a car for complicated track you are not going to go ***** out through the entire course every lap. That's especially true for a track as long as the ring. You're going to go out and work on certain corners each lap to see what the data shows. The result is that these test/learning laps are not overall going to be stellar.
I'm pretty confident that when GM sets out on a flyer, assuming no major issues, it will be stellar and a lot faster than a 7:12. In fact, I think the fact that there was a 7:12 lap where they weren't trying to set a flyer is pretty astounding.
FWIW, I do think ring times matter as a benchmark. Even C&D in setting up the Lightning Lap said they chose VIR Grand Course because it was the closest thing we had in the US to the ring. That said, the ring time won't have any impact on my buying decision just like the lack of a ring time didn't affect how much I loved both C7 Z06s I owned and tracked extensively.
Also, I think Porsche's are wonderful cars and I've owned a couple. I don't understand all the hate.
The hate is because of mentality and culture differences between people (I wont call it Americans vs Europeans because each culture also does have people who dont represent the majority and oppose it). Porsche is all about “elegance”, literally they do mix engineering with art. Making 525hp out of a 4 liter naturally aspirated engine in a car that weighs less than 3200 lbs is an art. Corvette is much more brute force and adding a supercharger to an already fairly big 6.2 liter engine and making gobs of power. Doing what corvette does is a lot cheaper and easier than doing what porsche does. Forget which is faster for a second. The approach taken by each company is so vastly different that the only familiarity between two cars is that they are cars with 4 wheels thats all. Porsche styling as a lot more understated whereas corvette has a very aggressive styling cues, very sharp corners and more aggressive transitions between each body panel.
If GT3RS and ZR1 costed same dollar for dollar, I dont see many buyers of ZR1 not even bothering. There are some hardcore corvette owners here who usually fall into a small bucket (for Z06/ZR1 that is not the base car as market for that is different).
I want to see Tadge putting the level of attention to the detail like AP does and give 45 minute documentary level video interviews to journalists walking over every piece of the car explaining how special that component is and the level of special car each GT variant takes unlike corvette which is take this and add more of it or make it wider or make it stronger.
We all know what I m talking about and we all accept it and we all should be honest about it. Corvette is corvette and will never be a true GT3RS competitor besides lap times because in my mind to truly compete with that car requires a fundemental mentality and culture shift in the company, engineering team, and owner base.
I bought my Corvette after owning a few Euros, including a Porsche. I still own a few euros. After my first vette I bought 3 others in subsequent years. I really don't care about the culture for any brand I enjoy the visceral experience a sports car provides. Currently the Z06 fills that void which others have not. Then when I factor the cost and cost of ownership for it...the vette always hits the mark, it is hard to beat on a track, street or drag. The raw feel of the Z06 is what draws me and I hope it continues with the ZR1..which I will own in the future. There's nothing wrong with owning a 911 it's a beautiful car, I prefer a Corvette. BTW between all my cars its the Corvette I drive the most...it's just more fun than the others.
Last edited by umatac1; 04-22-2018 at 09:34 AM.
Reason: additional comments
Corvette is corvette and will never be a true GT3RS competitor besides lap times because in my mind to truly compete with that car requires a fundemental mentality and culture shift in the company, engineering team, and owner base.
The RE GT's RS will have to follow, since, they will still have to have all that micro managed handling.
A Corvette will Simply$ be that better Drivers Car (if nothing else).
A working racing Corvette culture, Again!
https://youtu.be/P4nabBh2xIE
https://youtu.be/10BinitNxwk
The Corvette brother mass version coming!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 04-22-2018 at 11:32 AM.
Unhandled exception. Corvette doesnt want to be Porsche. Thats the point. The GT3RS and GT2RS are track racers minus the numbers. Neither one is very friendly to live with on tbe street. The ZR1 is still a loaded daily driveable car that carries a weight penalty because of it. DESPITE that weight, based on some early feedback from pro driver reviews it is extremely quick on a roadcourse to the point of being nearly or equal to Porsche's best stripped, quasi-racecar offerings in outright speed. Yes, it needs more power to achieve the same goal because of the weight but if that power carries no penalty in reliability, cost of maintenance or complexity, then who gives a rat fart if a stripped out, limited production, 50% more expensive track day special does equal with less. Looking at the performance to dollar vs daily comfort equation of the ZR1 vs these cars.....would you really be railing about the ZR1's weak engineering on a hot 100 degree day when the car group is putting in a 150 mile cruise and your sitting in a very expensive oven that runs similar times to a guy driving a car that has air conditioned seats?
PS: ZR1 is gonna split the GT2 and GT3 at the ring. 6.52-6.53 will be the time. With the Z06 upgraded suspension settings I would like to see them run it for grins. Pretty sure it l'd go 7.05.
Unhandled exception. Corvette doesnt want to be Porsche. Thats the point. The GT3RS and GT2RS are track racers minus the numbers. Neither one is very friendly to live with on tbe street. The ZR1 is still a loaded daily driveable car that carries a weight penalty because of it. DESPITE that weight, based on some early feedback from pro driver reviews it is extremely quick on a roadcourse to the point of being nearly or equal to Porsche's best stripped, quasi-racecar offerings in outright speed. Yes, it needs more power to achieve the same goal because of the weight but if that power carries no penalty in reliability, cost of maintenance or complexity, then who gives a rat fart if a stripped out, limited production, 50% more expensive track day special does equal with less. Looking at the performance to dollar vs daily comfort equation of the ZR1 vs these cars.....would you really be railing about the ZR1's weak engineering on a hot 100 degree day when the car group is putting in a 150 mile cruise and your sitting in a very expensive oven that runs similar times to a guy driving a car that has air conditioned seats?
PS: ZR1 is gonna split the GT2 and GT3 at the ring. 6.52-6.53 will be the time. With the Z06 upgraded suspension settings I would like to see them run it for grins. Pretty sure it l'd go 7.05.
It's a stripped, partially caged GT3RS (or GT2 RS). They're not daily drivers.
I'd argue the ZR1 isn't either though. But that's more of a "do you really want to take a ZR1 to the grocery store" type thing.
As with EVERYTHING GM has done about Corvette (and to be honest generally for domestic sports cars), there are nice ideas but the execution is so poor.
It's more a matter of cost than anything else.
The cooling in Z06, the lack of ring lap time in Z06.
Agreed, complete B.S. and everyone knows it.
Like those plastic front wheel fender extensions in z06 or extremely restrictive front bumper flow
Yeah, that wasn't so great.
or the 7th gear that is in the awkward position or the rev match buttons on the steering wheel for M7 because “it wasnt cost effective to remove them” such a domestic move (porsche would never make these amateurish mistakes in their flagship cars).
Which is why Porsches equal to the performance of the Corvette cost a helluva lot more.
but you know what the problem is? Problem is (or maybe its just the reality) the people who buy the corvette. There is a reason why corvette has a pure chrome wheel option (do you see one in a gt3?) or the z06 had 650hp/650 torque plaque (thank god zr1 doesnt have that) like people buying that car had to have that assurance.
The chrome wheel option is for buyers who WANT chrome wheels.
I don't understand why you would criticize GM for offering the option...
Originally Posted by village idiot
Not painting the wheel spats is pretty amateur. I dont know why they didn't just make them part of the fender considering they made a whole new fender.
Although GM said something to the affect the spats were a stylistic choice, I believe it will remain one of the great Corvette Mysteries for generations to come.
Originally Posted by UnhandledException
Porsche is all about “elegance”, literally they do mix engineering with art.
What is or is not "art" is entirely subjective.
Making 525hp out of a 4 liter naturally aspirated engine in a car that weighs less than 3200 lbs is an art.
ART????
I hope you're kidding.
It's done with engineering technology...nothing more.
Corvette is much more brute force and adding a supercharger
Please tell Porsche to dump their turbos.
Doing what corvette does is a lot cheaper and easier than doing what porsche does.
You're absolutely right, and that is why Corvettes cost less.
Porsche styling as a lot more understated whereas corvette has a very aggressive styling cues, very sharp corners and more aggressive transitions between each body panel.
You make that sound like it's a bad thing...
The 911 has never been a beacon of avant-garde styling.
If GT3RS and ZR1 costed same dollar for dollar, I dont see many buyers of ZR1 not even bothering. There are some hardcore corvette owners here who usually fall into a small bucket (for Z06/ZR1 that is not the base car as market for that is different).
There are plenty of people around here who could buy a GT3RS if they wished.
Has it occurred to you they simply may not want to?
We all know what I m talking about
Yes we do.
You would be happier in a Porsche.
and we all accept it and we all should be honest about it.
Uh, OK.
Corvette is corvette and will never be a true GT3RS competitor besides lap times because in my mind to truly compete with that car requires a fundemental mentality and culture shift in the company, engineering team, and owner base.
Again, you're right.
It's what is in your "mind" that counts.
This is such bullshit about GM not caring about the ring time. Then why the hell do they even bother going there? They should never even bother in the first place. You cant just go all the way there, have an absolutely terrible half assed planing and then say you cant post the times and shrug your shoulders!
As with EVERYTHING GM has done about Corvette (and to be honest generally for domestic sports cars), there are nice ideas but the execution is so poor. The cooling in Z06, the lack of ring lap time in Z06 and now this. The problem with these affordable domestic cars is these companies never bother to go that 3% extra to make 97% the full 100%. Like those plastic front wheel fender extensions in z06 or extremely restrictive front bumper flow or the 7th gear that is in the awkward position or the rev match buttons on the steering wheel for M7 because “it wasnt cost effective to remove them” such a domestic move (porsche would never make these amateurish mistakes in their flagship cars).
but you know what the problem is? Problem is (or maybe its just the reality) the people who buy the corvette. There is a reason why corvette has a pure chrome wheel option (do you see one in a gt3?) or the z06 had 650hp/650 torque plaque (thank god zr1 doesnt have that) like people buying that car had to have that assurance.
Usually people with just 57 posts wait a little longer before they try and insult the entire forum.
How does it matter when I joined and how many posts I have.
what matters is what I said. Corvette will never be a “true” gt3rs/gt2rs/even a gt3 competitor. A “true” competitor means competing in every major area not just 0-60 times or track times. Corvette has a very different clientele than Porsche.
people got my point about the chrome wheels completely wrong so let me explain in another way.
porsche does not offer a chrome wheel option not because they cant its because they dont want those customers who like chrome wheels to be driving their cars. Period. As such comes this massive diversion about the core differences of each company and how they serve their customers. As a result on one hand you have a company that sells a car with creative comforts like cooled seats and front bumper cameras to very different customers hence they have a 3580lbs car with a supercharger (one would argue this is more of a brute force less elegant solution) VS a company that sells a car with only 1 type of seat that does not even ADJUST (gt3rs and gr2rs). Their entire motto is to build elegance. And elegance is a thing that you either get or you dont get and I applaud Porsche for trying to squeeze 500+ hp from a 6 cylinder engine and still keeping the weight below 3200 lbs in this day and age. They actually LOSE business by restricting themselves but they are so addicted to their core values they wont give up (at least for now). From Porsche’s perspective, they dont care what physical shape or age you are in, they only want that specific group of people. I guarantee you that 80% of you in this thread have never even sat in a porsche bucket seat which literally either works for a body shape or it doesnt and is uncomfortable as hell. So good luck those old folks living their retirement dreams getting in and out of those seats (no disrespect here). Porsche does not want waxers, period. They have tracking in their heritage and DNA, and they are sticking to it. Corvette is not the opposite but is much more of a compromise car that does it all. This is the core difference and as such these two cars dont really compete. In my mind only american car that competes with gt3rs/gt2rs is viper acr-e.
and I am not saying any of this to mean that I like Porsche and not like Corvette. I am dreaming the day I will take delivery of my ZR1. I accept it for what it is and I dont care.
my point was all this comparison is utterly useless and pointless. The only commonality between two cars is they are both performance oriented cars and have 2 seats. And we should just move on and enjoy the car for what it is.
i am upset at GM however that they go all the way to the ring when they have perfectly capable tracks here for a car that they will not even sell in europe and completely screw up the entire execution and planning of their trip without fully understanding the marketing/enthusiast group implications of it. Nobody wants them to go there but we want them to take it seriously and publish their times and that means working with a local pro driver who knows the track well and who wont have the disadvantages Mero has, organizing dates and times so they have the track to themselves, bring the equipment and staff with them, etc. point is why the heck you bothered going there in the first place and completely made a fool out of yourselves?
Last edited by UnhandledException; 04-30-2018 at 06:06 PM.
04-21-2018, 03:28 PM
