Warp Factor

Crashin' ain't winning.

Except maybe in demolition derbies.

Have you given any serious consideration to the possibility that it might be you who is looking desperate?

Telepierre

LOL I suppose this is what happens when the verbose part of the brain takes over the analytical...

johnglenntwo

How many times do they have to lie being that they are Porsche guys?

Telepierre

I actually agree with you with the temp thing... but then again better keep things safe or else the engine my catch on fire?... ;-)

TARANTULA

Telepierre

I agree!! ...wait!! which GT2RS?

The "RING" stripped prototype?
The Stock version that ran against the 720S in Germany?
OR the MT one with cheater tires?
OR one of the GT2RS in the deposit pipeline headed for Florida?

There is actually a ASK TADGE policy you know...

TARANTULA

Telepierre

Classic! "you know about" the policy but obviously you have not read it.

But just to show empathy I'll pick the last on the list. The one Porsche Marketing turned into swindle...

TrackAire

So I'll start by saying that I have not driven the ZR1 yet, let alone track one. But I agree with you that the stupidest thing I've ever heard is you can drive a 700 plush horsepower car with the pedal to the metal coming out of corners. Totally counter intuitive and not a good learning feature....in fact, it teaches just the opposite of reality.

I'm starting to feel that GM had to develop the PTM to counteract the magnetic shock feature when in race mode because it is too stiff. For very fast laps by expert drivers, I think the magnetic shocks are a detriment....I don't car how fast they claim they can react, I feel that if conditions aren't perfect to match the algorithm written to control them, then they can make the car twitchy and require a fix....and a simple fix is PTM for the normal track guy. But in race mode the shocks are too stiff so the Randy dials them back (if I'm understanding these threads correctly) to soften the rear so he can get the power down.

GM always likes putting a bunch of gimmicky stuff on their high end cars.....the Corvette market they cater to loves it. Adjustable shocks are great for the average Corvette buyer. But when pushed to the absolute limit in race mode, it sounds like they may be just too stiff. For the normal track guy, that makes the car feel very sporty with what feels like razor sharp race car reflexes. But once you go over a specific performance limit (like a pro can achieve) that's when the chassis gets twitchy and PTM can help the majority of use non pro drivers handle the race mode.

I see major problems when pro drivers claim a car is "twitchy"......there are only a few things that should make a car twitchy at the limit:

1. Alignment is wrong
2. Bushings are allowing too much movement of the a-arms causing caster and or toe changes in corners
3. Tie rods are flexing or moving causing toe changes in corners
4. Suspension is too stiff to keep tire contact with the track surface
5. Shock tuning is wrong, too stiff, too soft or isn't reacting fast enough for the spring rate vs track surface conditions
6. Hub bearings are shot
7. A combination of some or all of the above

Ok experts, am I missing anything? No modern car should be "twitchy" at the limit....by definition that means something is moving or incorrectly working when at the limit, right? Twitchy at the limit means lack of confidence for the driver. Lack of confidence means slower lap times. To much twitchy handling in corners with high horsepower and you have a spin out or loss of control. Enter PTM.....it's not to make the car faster but to cover issues with the chassis and keep most of us safe, especially on the street where 99% of the Corvette owners stay.

SouthernSon

This thread kinda makes you wish you were a fly on the wall inside the halls of GM when learned engineers developed the system, huh?

Lavender

What did we know? Car on off-road tires is faster than a car on factory tires? Why dont you check tests from Europe where the Macca 720S and Baby Bull Performante tore the GT2 RS on its actual factory tires a new one so big that you can fit an actual Bull in there?

Lavender

That one we already know was run on the factory tires. Im more curious about what else other than the R tires and the funky intercooler doohickeys they used on the "stock" 'Ring lap.

TARANTULA

Lavender

So what is the conclusion? GM is paying everyone to tell the world that the PTM on is better than PTM off? Did they forgot to pay Randy as well so he can say the same "bullshit" as you claim it to be? Or how would you describe?

Lavender

Let him be. Hes on a crusade here to protect Randy and attack GM marketing. Its kinda funny to be honest...!

heavychevy

The very real situation is that the Corvette, along with all these other high hp vehicles are dangerous to owners who don't have proper driving skills. We've all seen the videos of Mustangs, Corvettes, Vipers etc. pulling out of cars and coffee and crashing into a curb trying to show off. The manufacturers don't want to be considered a killjoy big brother by not allowing you to use the car to its full potential, but they all have their way of trying to build in some safeguards so that customers can enjoy the cars without assuring they will put themselves in the wall. Porsche does it with a failsafe PSM that will cut back on if it thinks you're in danger of crashing. It's pretty good at knowing when there is no way you could possibly recover. I think GM has taken the route of convincing everyone to use the PTM. And for most drivers it is the safer pragmatic way to drive fast with some level of assistance/safety built in. Then they send the lackeys to convince everyone that it's even better than pro drivers with GM sponsored track tests with GM pro drivers to validate it. Porsche tried it a long time ago with advertising videos on the PSM for the 996 saying it was faster with it on than off. Same tactic, but you couldn't sell that with a straight face to anybody. Who knows, they might still be trying to convince new buyers its faster. For beginners, intermediate and maybe some advanced drivers it might be. But expert level and pros, like Tadge said, that's not likely going to be the case.

Keep in mind that in the test at Willow for the C6ZR1, Justin Bell was almost 1.5 seconds slower than Randy Pobst in a Z/28. Granted this was a ZR1 on PS2 and not Cups, the ZR1 beat the z/28 by multiple seconds everywhere else. So the time should have been about even with the Z28 on Trofeos, maybe still a slight nod to the ZR1, not 1.5 seconds slower. This tells me that Bell either didn't know the track very well, or he knew GM wanted to push the PTM in the article and dialed it back to a time he could match/beat with PTM on. The written portion did sell the PTM as faster than a pro. You think that happened on accident that a factory Corvette pro did a test featuring a Corvette and selling the merits of PTM when the guy didn't even know the track? Why would a magazine, who already had Randy driving most of the time, now all of a sudden have a factory Corvette racing driver? And why would GM send one from Britain, who had never been to willow before? That makes NO SENSE WHATSOEVER!!!!! It has propaganda written all over it. Not a single unbiased person would deny that.

This trick is not new. Several manufacturers have tried it. Remember the early Nissan GTR with the voided warranty if you turned off the TC? They also said that was as fast with TC on, but mostly for launching and protecting the transmission.

I don't buy corporate speak from any manufacturer. And you best believe there is plenty of it to go around. Gullible beginners, bench racers and even some good DE drivers even believe it over independent sources that have nothing to gain from an unbiased opinion. GM has them so convinced, they now think they know better than a pro driver. How delirious is that? GM's marketing job has worked.

Anyhow, I think the all aids off, is the unadulterated, raw 755 hp ZR1 which not many (hardly any) of Corvette's customer base can handle. So they have to sell you on the "not fact" that PTM is faster so they keep the old guys out of the ditches. But simultaneously they are teaching poor driving habits by getting people to lean on drivers aids instead of actual proper driving technique. So when they drive another car, they've practiced bad habits so much, they are a worse driver. Let the lackeys convince you otherwise of that.......... It's a huge risk for manufacturers putting out all of these super high hp cars to the public. The lawyers are right next to the bean counters cutting stuff that might cost money in the future. Lawsuits are at the top of the list. Think about if it were your business in sue happy america, and then work backwards. It will make sense then, if you can look at it with a pragmatic approach.

700+ hp comes with an asterisk in most every case. AWD/PSM/PTM. Honestly GM has taken the biggest risk of them all by allowing it to be disabled, BUT with the timing retards and ECU encriptions, I think they have resorted to under the table ways of protecting both the engine and the driver.

Robert R1

jvp

The very real situation with this... situation is that you haven't really a clue what you're talking about. I don't question your driving prowess or your track experience in the least. But in this specific case, you're simply ignorant. Wrong. Unknowing. Lacking of information. And any other phrase or word you can think of.

If you even remotely think that PTM is considered in the same vein as the safety nets on other cars, then you've shown your hand. And it's a hand full of jokers. You are completely, totally, and 100% wrong. You can still very easily wipe out with PTM running, even in the least aggressive mode. To think that it doesn't take a level of skill to properly utilize PTM to its fullest is also folly and ignorance.

Stop posting on the subject. You don't have the requisite experience to do so and you're just making yourself look more and more ignorant. Remember what I said about the difference between ignorance and stupidity? You're starting to show some level of stupidity.

Warp Factor

Wow, heavychevy, that was an impressively complex and convoluted conspiracy theory!

Don't forget to handcuff yourself to your bed again tonight, so you won't be abducted by aliens.

Lavender

Sorry ment to say engine torque map right there.