Car and Driver Lightning Lap 2018
09-20-2018, 09:51 AM
#21
Instructor
If I remember correctly, Car and Driver uses a hot shoe magazine editor to drive the cars versus Motor Trend that uses Randy, a pro driver. That will make a lot of difference in lap time consistency between different cars. Maybe somebody can confirm who the C&D driver was.
Looking at the list of lap times, the clear fast for the dollar winner here is the Mustang GT. Buy a new Mustang, put about $8,000 worth of upgrades to it and you'd have a vehicle that is nearly touching a Porsche GT3's stock time. Pretty damn impressive.
Looking at the list of lap times, the clear fast for the dollar winner here is the Mustang GT. Buy a new Mustang, put about $8,000 worth of upgrades to it and you'd have a vehicle that is nearly touching a Porsche GT3's stock time. Pretty damn impressive.
Last edited by likeaboss; 09-20-2018 at 09:54 AM.
09-20-2018, 10:35 AM
#22
Instructor
I love to see the ZR1 neck-and-neck with the "big names"
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D'ZR1 Messiah (09-20-2018)
09-20-2018, 11:00 AM
#24
Instructor
09-20-2018, 11:11 AM
#25
Nothing wrong with using a group of fast non-pros. Several guys drive as many of the cars as possible and they use the fastest lap.
It's not an unimportant data point what a non-pro can do with a car...
It's not an unimportant data point what a non-pro can do with a car...
09-20-2018, 11:13 AM
#26
Damn it...I don't know how I missed the SS 1LE on this years list of contenders.........
I don't know how they do it, but the Camaro team does build a car that defies its size and weight on the track. It would be an excellent choice as a track day weapon to inflict heartburn to many a P-car driver.
I don't know how they do it, but the Camaro team does build a car that defies its size and weight on the track. It would be an excellent choice as a track day weapon to inflict heartburn to many a P-car driver.
09-20-2018, 11:13 AM
#27
Safety Car
And they aren't all bad. 2 seconds off Mero in warmer conditions and 6mph down on the front straight.
09-20-2018, 11:56 AM
#28
Instructor
Using different drivers creates an inconstant variable and an unfair comparison between cars even though they're on the same track as each drivers skill comes into question. I think they should include the non-pro numbers but have a pro that can really take each car to it's limit and not be limited by whatever driver happens to drive that specific car.
Last edited by likeaboss; 09-20-2018 at 11:56 AM.
09-20-2018, 11:58 AM
#29
Safety Car
They test the cars over 3 days. All the guys drive all the cars. It's not just a Mashup. Still consistent enough. Possibly moreso.
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-20-2018 at 12:00 PM.
09-20-2018, 12:01 PM
#30
Instructor
That's not how you do a proper test and where Motor Trend has them beat by using Randy across all the cars. Otherwise it might as well be three of us on the forum going out and driving them for three days...
09-20-2018, 12:07 PM
#31
Safety Car
Not proper according to whom? Let's see you try to go drive a 2:39 at VIR Grand in a bone stock ZR1 and you'll realize very quickly that is no average joe driving. Multiple drivers gives more opportunity for different drivers who may have more experience in different platforms or just like the setup better. Most manufacturers use multiple drivers to set ring times now.
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TARANTULA (09-20-2018)
09-20-2018, 12:27 PM
#32
Instructor
Not proper according to whom? Let's see you try to go drive a 2:39 at VIR Grand in a bone stock ZR1 and you'll realize very quickly that is no average joe driving. Multiple drivers gives more opportunity for different drivers who may have more experience in different platforms or just like the setup better. Most manufacturers use multiple drivers to set ring times now.
As for me doing a 2:39 in a ZR1 I'm happy to try.
Last edited by likeaboss; 09-20-2018 at 12:57 PM.
09-20-2018, 01:10 PM
#33
I always hoped this was how it worked, so glad to have that info.
09-20-2018, 01:20 PM
#34
Instructor
As long as all drivers drive all cars, and they used the fastest time, I think it's okay. My concern would be if certain drivers only get morning or only get afternoon, and the track gets faster or slower throughout the day.
They've been running this test for over 10 years, so unlikely to change too much at this point. Plus bringing in a real pro would mean that the times of previous years were now not at all comparable (it's still sort of a crap shoot comparing times year to year since the track changes and weather can be different, but switching the driver method is yet another big variable).
I always hoped this was how it worked, so glad to have that info.
They've been running this test for over 10 years, so unlikely to change too much at this point. Plus bringing in a real pro would mean that the times of previous years were now not at all comparable (it's still sort of a crap shoot comparing times year to year since the track changes and weather can be different, but switching the driver method is yet another big variable).
I always hoped this was how it worked, so glad to have that info.
Last edited by likeaboss; 09-20-2018 at 01:22 PM.
09-20-2018, 01:37 PM
#35
Safety Car
So your gripe is more with the cars you like getting beaten then? Got it.
Last edited by heavychevy; 09-20-2018 at 01:37 PM.
09-20-2018, 01:42 PM
#36
Melting Slicks
Nah, Pobst set the record at Road Atlanta.
Also, Andy Pilgrim was also 3 seconds slower on the same track (NCM) in an A8 than he ran the record lap a few months earlier in a manual.
Seems to be a crap shoot. Maybe it's as simple as at the lightning lap, they are driving a bunch of cars that sit around until hot lap time. And with Mero giving pointers and telling them they only have one hot lap, the car was still cool and hadn't dialed the timing all the way back yet. 6 mph is still a lot. There are no road comparisons that allow the car to heat up. All of the tests that the car has performed poorly have had road tests as well I believe.
Mero even predicted 2 seconds slower than him based on ambient temps. 2 seconds is a long time not solely attributed to normal heat affects. Mero clearly knows this issues exists.
This has to be one of the most finicky test vehicles I've seen.
Also, Andy Pilgrim was also 3 seconds slower on the same track (NCM) in an A8 than he ran the record lap a few months earlier in a manual.
Seems to be a crap shoot. Maybe it's as simple as at the lightning lap, they are driving a bunch of cars that sit around until hot lap time. And with Mero giving pointers and telling them they only have one hot lap, the car was still cool and hadn't dialed the timing all the way back yet. 6 mph is still a lot. There are no road comparisons that allow the car to heat up. All of the tests that the car has performed poorly have had road tests as well I believe.
Mero even predicted 2 seconds slower than him based on ambient temps. 2 seconds is a long time not solely attributed to normal heat affects. Mero clearly knows this issues exists.
This has to be one of the most finicky test vehicles I've seen.
I agree with you that they seem to have an aggressive timing pull as things heat up, but one thing you have to consider about the VIR front straight speed is the speed through Hog Pen. Unfortunately the videos of Mero and C&D don't show the trip through Hog Pen for the max straight speeds given, but you can see the speeds at the end of the lap. Mero's min speed through Hog Pen is over 10mph more than C&Ds. By the time they are fully on the straight it looks like C&D made up a good bit of the speed though. Hard to say, but some of the straight speed difference could just be from corner exit speed. I also looked at the back straight speed and while they both had almost the same min speed through Oak Tree, Mero is defiantly back on the gas sooner and by the time they fully exit the corner he is ~4mph faster and before they brake he ends up 7 mph faster. So some is HP and some is driver.
Last edited by racerns; 09-20-2018 at 01:44 PM.
09-20-2018, 02:15 PM
#37
Safety Car
I forgot it was Pobst that did the Road Atlanta time, for some reason I was thinking Pilgram.
I agree with you that they seem to have an aggressive timing pull as things heat up, but one thing you have to consider about the VIR front straight speed is the speed through Hog Pen. Unfortunately the videos of Mero and C&D don't show the trip through Hog Pen for the max straight speeds given, but you can see the speeds at the end of the lap. Mero's min speed through Hog Pen is over 10mph more than C&Ds. By the time they are fully on the straight it looks like C&D made up a good bit of the speed though. Hard to say, but some of the straight speed difference could just be from corner exit speed. I also looked at the back straight speed and while they both had almost the same min speed through Oak Tree, Mero is defiantly back on the gas sooner and by the time they fully exit the corner he is ~4mph faster and before they brake he ends up 7 mph faster. So some is HP and some is driver.
I agree with you that they seem to have an aggressive timing pull as things heat up, but one thing you have to consider about the VIR front straight speed is the speed through Hog Pen. Unfortunately the videos of Mero and C&D don't show the trip through Hog Pen for the max straight speeds given, but you can see the speeds at the end of the lap. Mero's min speed through Hog Pen is over 10mph more than C&Ds. By the time they are fully on the straight it looks like C&D made up a good bit of the speed though. Hard to say, but some of the straight speed difference could just be from corner exit speed. I also looked at the back straight speed and while they both had almost the same min speed through Oak Tree, Mero is defiantly back on the gas sooner and by the time they fully exit the corner he is ~4mph faster and before they brake he ends up 7 mph faster. So some is HP and some is driver.
09-20-2018, 03:04 PM
#38
Instructor
09-20-2018, 05:09 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
- OR it creates a very useful variable. Most driver's have a preference for handling bias, and this bias can make them more or less effective at driving different cars. I watch F1 avidly, and have seen that even at the top level of motorsport a given teams chassis design can hamstring one of their two drivers' performance relative to the other. But the next year if the chassis favors a different driving style their times can change dramatically.
I think the best option for testing is to use multiple drivers and only show the best and worst times from among them. Then that gives you a reasonably complete bracket of expectation.
I think the best option for testing is to use multiple drivers and only show the best and worst times from among them. Then that gives you a reasonably complete bracket of expectation.
09-20-2018, 05:34 PM
#40
2015 Z06 lightening lap
I know it was a different year and conditions not exactly the same but the C7 Z06 did 2:44.6 in 2015. Likely mostly the same drivers but I don't know that for sure.
The current ZR1 doing 2:39.5 seems about right for a more powerful car in about the same chassis and running the same tires.
The C&D and R&T reviews figured significantly into my buying the 2017 Z06. Seemed like a great performance/cost proposition, and when driven by non-pros like me (but likely more experienced), it is right up there with the best in the world. I think GM has done a great job of developing the Corvette, as have Porsche with the 911.
Don't mean to/want to inflame the 'Ring time issue again, but having all these cars on a great track, that is shorter and easier for drivers to come to grips with, at the same time, is more valuable to me than how they compare at Nurburgring.
And although I have always admired the GT40 since the late 60's, I can't afford to buy one. But now I can be smug and say I have a car that a regular guy can drive faster than the GT40
The current ZR1 doing 2:39.5 seems about right for a more powerful car in about the same chassis and running the same tires.
The C&D and R&T reviews figured significantly into my buying the 2017 Z06. Seemed like a great performance/cost proposition, and when driven by non-pros like me (but likely more experienced), it is right up there with the best in the world. I think GM has done a great job of developing the Corvette, as have Porsche with the 911.
Don't mean to/want to inflame the 'Ring time issue again, but having all these cars on a great track, that is shorter and easier for drivers to come to grips with, at the same time, is more valuable to me than how they compare at Nurburgring.
And although I have always admired the GT40 since the late 60's, I can't afford to buy one. But now I can be smug and say I have a car that a regular guy can drive faster than the GT40