Motor Trend destroys the 2019 ZR1
10-25-2018, 06:30 PM
#221
Guys buy the new Michelin AS3's. They are a night and day difference compared to the OEM tires and mine is a non-Z07 so NOT the cups I am comparing to. They are safer and actually provide usable traction on cold pavement. I can put the hammer down even in 40deg weather. I am hoping I can get away with these as street tires year round, because they are so much better in the rain. They make a slightly different howl at speed. The ride seems a little less choppy. Everyone should have a set if they drive in the rain or in sub-60-deg weather, where the OEM tires become an utter disappointment, for safety reasons alone.
Driving slow cars fast is fun, but driving fast cars fast is definitely even more fun. I like to work on my lap times at the track too, but in the end I am just entertaining myself.
Driving slow cars fast is fun, but driving fast cars fast is definitely even more fun. I like to work on my lap times at the track too, but in the end I am just entertaining myself.
10-28-2018, 08:06 AM
#222
As someone who has also sat in the right hand seat of quite a number of cars at more than a couple of tracks - I do have one comment ...
I don't care how good the Instructor is - if a student doesn't want to listen and learn, the best instructor in the world is ballast.
Personally - I recommend starting out in a car that isn't super high powered, and learning the basics of track driving with street tires and without the kind of power that blurs scenery very quickly. After you've figured out the basics - move up to R-Compound rubber, and learn about controlling a car in the corners. Once you get comfortable there - then move up to something with some power... Hopefully - you'll understand enough about car control at that point that the big numbers down the straights are not only manageable - but add to your learning....
Many many years ago - when I first went out on the track - there were not a lot of high power cars out there. The only way to go fast was to get through the corners quickly, and by the time people learned how to do that - the rest of the car control skills were pretty much ready for the bigger speeds. Today - that is NOT the case - it's common to see people in the beginner groups go through the corners at 6 tenths - then matt the loud pedal, and be carrying some real speed as they get into the next braking zone. That is not the best situation for an inexperienced student.....
And just for the record - a number of years ago - I went for a check out ride with a signed off solo student. He was in a Porsche with slicks and with a turbo motor... On the first lap out (ambient temp around 45 - 50 F), he seemed to be doing just fine - was taking it quite easy - we were probably doing around 45 - 50 MPH when he gave the car a little throttle - I don't think he got the response he wanted from the motor, and gave it a little more throttle... (I think most of you Instruct already know how this story ends...) The turbo woke up, the car went sideways - the driver fed in the correction, the car responded, went sideways the other way - and we went into the wall - hitting at about 30 MPH. Why - YEP - Cold tires !!! At 50 degrees slicks have far less grip than all season rubber. It's not like the engine was working hard - I doubt that when the incident stated the tach read more than 2,700 RPM.. But in less than 3 sec - the car went from nice to badly damaged. Fortunately the car had a decent cage, and we both emerged uninjured - but the moral is that here is an experienced driver with probably 1,000+ track miles under his belt, and he got caught off guard by the lack of grip...
I don't care how good the Instructor is - if a student doesn't want to listen and learn, the best instructor in the world is ballast.
Personally - I recommend starting out in a car that isn't super high powered, and learning the basics of track driving with street tires and without the kind of power that blurs scenery very quickly. After you've figured out the basics - move up to R-Compound rubber, and learn about controlling a car in the corners. Once you get comfortable there - then move up to something with some power... Hopefully - you'll understand enough about car control at that point that the big numbers down the straights are not only manageable - but add to your learning....
Many many years ago - when I first went out on the track - there were not a lot of high power cars out there. The only way to go fast was to get through the corners quickly, and by the time people learned how to do that - the rest of the car control skills were pretty much ready for the bigger speeds. Today - that is NOT the case - it's common to see people in the beginner groups go through the corners at 6 tenths - then matt the loud pedal, and be carrying some real speed as they get into the next braking zone. That is not the best situation for an inexperienced student.....
And just for the record - a number of years ago - I went for a check out ride with a signed off solo student. He was in a Porsche with slicks and with a turbo motor... On the first lap out (ambient temp around 45 - 50 F), he seemed to be doing just fine - was taking it quite easy - we were probably doing around 45 - 50 MPH when he gave the car a little throttle - I don't think he got the response he wanted from the motor, and gave it a little more throttle... (I think most of you Instruct already know how this story ends...) The turbo woke up, the car went sideways - the driver fed in the correction, the car responded, went sideways the other way - and we went into the wall - hitting at about 30 MPH. Why - YEP - Cold tires !!! At 50 degrees slicks have far less grip than all season rubber. It's not like the engine was working hard - I doubt that when the incident stated the tach read more than 2,700 RPM.. But in less than 3 sec - the car went from nice to badly damaged. Fortunately the car had a decent cage, and we both emerged uninjured - but the moral is that here is an experienced driver with probably 1,000+ track miles under his belt, and he got caught off guard by the lack of grip...
10-28-2018, 08:39 AM
#223
Safety Car
As a competitive driver and racer for 20 years I always laugh at the concept of "momentum" car. If you're racing against equal cars in a class they they're all "momentum" cars. Sure the average trackday HPDE1 guy can get out there and blast the straights and never learn anything, but that's if he has a bad instructor. As someone who always gets the hi-po rwd students I can tell you this.... I can drive a Spec-Miata a lot faster than a Spec-Miata racer can get up to speed in my old ST2 Corvette. Things happen a lot faster in fast cars and the throttle just isn't an on/off switch.
You want to learn? Get a C5/6/7 and get out there with the nannies turned off and have fun.
You want to learn? Get a C5/6/7 and get out there with the nannies turned off and have fun.
If you are slow in a momentum car you mostly lack skill. If you are slow in a high hp car you may not lack skill, you may just lack the fortitude because throttle and entry speed mistakes have far higher consequences.
The hidden variable is risk. You must overcome both much higher risk and skill to be fast in a high hp car. Everyone has the courage to go flat footed in a miata. Everyone does not have the courage to go flat as early as possible in a 600+ hp car. No matter how much experience. This is as fact as it gets.
How many people are willing to apex the middle ess at VIR at 150 mph when just being slightly wrong means you definitely crash. This is the hidden factor a momentum car cannot prepare you for. I do agree it can be beneficial to learn in a momentum car, assuming you don't have proper instructing to begin with and are learning on your own. I teach people this concept all the time in high hp cars and shave seconds off. I have also instructed those who came from low hp cars and are scared to death of hp.
Simply put, you have the skill and risk acceptance to get near the max of any car you drive or you don't. It really doesn't matter where you start.
10-29-2018, 12:08 AM
#224
Le Mans Master
This conversation has evolved into a strawman. No one is saying you can't learn in a high HP car. It's just that your learning curve is going to be a lot slower in a 700hp car than if you start out with something slow and make your way up. This whole thing is comical at this point. Virtually every instructor I've had who has competitively raced (cars and sport bikes) has said to learn on lower powered vehicles. Very fast guys have driven things like a spec boxter and learned in them, then dropped time from their 600hp c5s. I personally dropped about 3 seconds over 1.5 seasons in the GS by driving my Miata more. The only time I've heard anyone preach the advantages of developing driving skills in +600hp cars is on this forum.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
10-29-2018, 02:36 AM
#225
Melting Slicks
This conversation has evolved into a strawman. No one is saying you can't learn in a high HP car. It's just that your learning curve is going to be a lot slower in a 700hp car than if you start out with something slow and make your way up. This whole thing is comical at this point. Virtually every instructor I've had who has competitively raced (cars and sport bikes) has said to learn on lower powered vehicles. Very fast guys have driven things like a spec boxter and learned in them, then dropped time from their 600hp c5s. I personally dropped about 3 seconds over 1.5 seasons in the GS by driving my Miata more. The only time I've heard anyone preach the advantages of developing driving skills in +600hp cars is on this forum.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
10-29-2018, 05:09 AM
#226
Safety Car
This conversation has evolved into a strawman. No one is saying you can't learn in a high HP car. It's just that your learning curve is going to be a lot slower in a 700hp car than if you start out with something slow and make your way up. This whole thing is comical at this point. Virtually every instructor I've had who has competitively raced (cars and sport bikes) has said to learn on lower powered vehicles. Very fast guys have driven things like a spec boxter and learned in them, then dropped time from their 600hp c5s. I personally dropped about 3 seconds over 1.5 seasons in the GS by driving my Miata more. The only time I've heard anyone preach the advantages of developing driving skills in +600hp cars is on this forum.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
Like I have repeatedly said, a good driver will learn in anything because they learn technique. You can go right down the list of fastest corvette drivers on this forum, and the majority did not start in miatas. At least not the ones I know of. Most of the miata guys I know, still drive them.
10-29-2018, 08:38 AM
#227
You only call it that because you can't accept that people have different opinions than your own? Or that other realities exist outside of your bubble? Most instructors drive low hp cars so what do you expect them to say? Also, most instructors are not the fastest st guys at the track on any given weekend. Unless you are talking about some NASA weekends.
Like I have repeatedly said, a good driver will learn in anything because they learn technique. You can go right down the list of fastest corvette drivers on this forum, and the majority did not start in miatas. At least not the ones I know of. Most of the miata guys I know, still drive them.
Like I have repeatedly said, a good driver will learn in anything because they learn technique. You can go right down the list of fastest corvette drivers on this forum, and the majority did not start in miatas. At least not the ones I know of. Most of the miata guys I know, still drive them.
10-29-2018, 09:04 AM
#228
Safety Car
At this point you are arguing just to argue. He said that you could learn in a high-horsepower car but you would learn slower. Personally, I have a hard time believing anyone would argue that the learning curve is going to be slower in a car with triple the horsepower. Of course it is, you have to react that much faster and the risk is that much greater. Most sane people will be more tentative in a very high horsepower car with tons of grip because the limits are that much higher. All of that conspires to a slower learning curve. I don't think anyone here is saying that you won't learn if you buy a Z06 or a ZR1 and start there. But you can get to the edge of grip and learn to manage it more readily in something with less horsepower, less grip in the tires etc.
All of this is repetitive. But simple concepts don't seem to be sinking in. Driving a miata will not make you better at driving a corvette. The only thing that happens quicker is you get closer to the limits of a miata faster because it's limits are so much lower and it's slower. Most guys never even reach the limit of a Corvette, because they are too scared to.
10-29-2018, 09:11 AM
#229
Le Mans Master
You only call it that because you can't accept that people have different opinions than your own? Or that other realities exist outside of your bubble? Most instructors drive low hp cars so what do you expect them to say? Also, most instructors are not the fastest st guys at the track on any given weekend. Unless you are talking about some NASA weekends.
Like I have repeatedly said, a good driver will learn in anything because they learn technique. You can go right down the list of fastest corvette drivers on this forum, and the majority did not start in miatas. At least not the ones I know of. Most of the miata guys I know, still drive them.
Like I have repeatedly said, a good driver will learn in anything because they learn technique. You can go right down the list of fastest corvette drivers on this forum, and the majority did not start in miatas. At least not the ones I know of. Most of the miata guys I know, still drive them.
I've been fortunate enough to have access to actual pro drivers (former and current) and competitive racers who are professional coaches. I've never heard a single one of them say I need to drive my C7 more and drive the Miata less. Ask any of them what the perfect car is to learn on and the answers will range between Spec Miata to Spec Boxter. Except the gurus of the Corvette forum, of course.
10-29-2018, 10:23 AM
#230
Melting Slicks
Not all racers are jockey sized (majority must be) and thus can even get their legs stuffed into a miata. Maybe the instructors have some advice on how to shorten them by a half a foot or so.....
10-29-2018, 12:32 PM
#231
That sums it up perfectly.
This... I’m 6’4” and a Miata, even with all the tricks, just doesn’t work.
Most instructors aren’t fast. They want the free track time and some enjoy teaching.
Most instructors aren’t fast. They want the free track time and some enjoy teaching.
10-29-2018, 01:09 PM
#232
Le Mans Master
But it's not accurate. My lap times decreased substantially from driving a Miata.
This... I’m 6’4” and a Miata, even with all the tricks, just doesn’t work.
Most instructors aren’t fast. They want the free track time and some enjoy teaching.
Most instructors aren’t fast. They want the free track time and some enjoy teaching.
10-29-2018, 07:01 PM
#233
Race Director
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This conversation has evolved into a strawman. No one is saying you can't learn in a high HP car. It's just that your learning curve is going to be a lot slower in a 700hp car than if you start out with something slow and make your way up. This whole thing is comical at this point. Virtually every instructor I've had who has competitively raced (cars and sport bikes) has said to learn on lower powered vehicles. Very fast guys have driven things like a spec boxter and learned in them, then dropped time from their 600hp c5s. I personally dropped about 3 seconds over 1.5 seasons in the GS by driving my Miata more. The only time I've heard anyone preach the advantages of developing driving skills in +600hp cars is on this forum.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
Anyway, I just got an FRS with some track mods (camber plates, sway bars, swings, about 35-40hp worth of bolt ons). It's a nice step up from the Miata and a ton of fun to drive (far more fun than the C7). It's probably a good 7 seconds per lap slower than the GS, but man is it fun (and about 1/4 the operational cost). Given how well it's balanced, I have a feeling I'm going to have a blast and get faster, quicker.
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desmophile (10-30-2018)
10-29-2018, 07:26 PM
#234
Le Mans Master
Perhaps you mean to say it is easier and more forgiving to find the limits of a slower, lower HP car? If you mean that the learning curve as referencing skill is more slowly acquired in a high HP car then I will just have to say we have a difference of opinion. If you take a 23 turn track with elevation changes you may never get close to lateral g limit of a slower car in some or most turns. What have you learned??
10-30-2018, 10:38 AM
#235
As for instructors... I’ve been one since 2011. I always get the hi-po RWD cars. Almost every time I’m told it was the most fun they’ve ever had on track because I was the first instructor who wasn’t mostly scared and actually pushed them to learn their car and get better. Safety is job #1, but like all sports people want to have tangible improvement. When in doubt more gas!
I do have a gripe with these super fast new cars... they’re too fast. For those I set a HPDE1 speed limit of around 120 and higher around 150. I’m not going 170+ in a new ZR1 in HPDE 1 in the right seat
10-30-2018, 02:01 PM
#236
Le Mans Master
People that have raced at all of those tracks have made mistakes and crashed cars. That trend will continue. Having driven in a high performance setting doesn't make you immune from making mistakes.
10-31-2018, 08:09 AM
#238
Le Mans Master
10-31-2018, 08:54 AM
#239
Le Mans Master
You are amazing, and youse should run for government! ;)
Endorsing the big power M7 micromanaging smaller throttle increments manually (without PTM!), PERFECT!
Last edited by johnglenntwo; 10-31-2018 at 08:59 AM.
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Racerdj (10-31-2018)
10-31-2018, 10:38 AM
#240
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To follow your thought, I take it the 600 cried out to your compensation anxiety. But, back to the high hp vs. low hp, a good case in point for learning in a high HP vehicle would be a student I had on the track at Putnam a few years back. He lived in California and drove a Prius. His first time on track was his dad's C5Z. By the second day he was doing well into the 1 min. + teens. He learned to handle the power well. He could plant the rear end with power at or before the apex. I was impressed. He would not have prgressed nearly as quickly with a lower HP vehicle that weekend.