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Lamborghini just announced a new hybrid Supercar to replace the discontinued Aventador going by the code name LB744. Pictures of the unwrapped body have not yet been officially released. The focus of the announcement was on the drivetrain. It will feature:
* ICE engine behind the driver using an 8-speed DCT
* Electric motors powering the front wheels
* eAWD (or e-4WD)
* Batteries for the electric motors in a tunnel section between the seats
Sound familiar?
*
So what’s different?
* LB744 utilizes a V12 (eRay uses a V8)
* LB744 will have 1,000 HP (eRay 655 HP)
* LB744 will have a 3.8 kWh battery pack (eRay has a 1.9 kWh battery)
* In addition to regenerative braking, the LB744 can be plugged in to charge the battery pack (eRay can’t be plugged in to charge the battery pack)
* LB744 will be priced accordingly for a Lamborghini (eRay will be priced at the high end for a Chevy)
Here’s more information:
It's the dawn of a new era for Lamborghini as the exotic Italian marque has released the first details regarding a plug-in hybrid powertrain destined to debut in the Aventador successor. The hotly anticipated supercar goes by the "LB744" codename and uses a completely new naturally aspirated 6.5-liter V12. Compared to the model it replaces, the new machine from Sant'Agata Bolognese has the engine rotated by 180 degree.
The mighty V12 with its 9,500 rpm redline is only a part of the powertrain because Lamborghini's new flagship car will employ a hybrid setup. While the ICE sends output to the rear wheels, two electric motors drive the front axle. Located above the newly developed eight-speed, dual-clutch automatic transmission, a third electric motor can route its power to the rear wheels depending on the driving mode and road conditions.
With the power of the V12 and three electric motors combined, the new LB744 offers a total of 1,000 hp. The engineers installed the DCT transversally behind the longitudinally mounted V12 to make room for a lithium-ion battery in the tunnel. Weighing in at 425 lbs (193 kg), the transmission is not only lighter than the Huracan's but it also changes gears quicker. Speaking of which, Lamborghini says the gearbox will find its way into the Huracan's successor.
The 3.8-kWh battery pack mounted in the central tunnel can be charged at up to 7 kW, in which case it takes half an hour. It can also be replenished via the regenerative braking of the front wheels or straight from the V12 in only six minutes. The LB744 has all-wheel drive, but it works as a front-wheel-drive EV when you reverse. The rear-mounted electric motor can also kick in, depending on conditions. In other words, Lamborghini's next supercar can run in all-wheel-drive electric mode.
Not that enthusiasts will care a great deal, but CO2 emissions are down by 30 percent compared to the Ultimae, courtesy of the hybrid powertrain with its EV mode. The LB744 is not the first electrified production Lamborghini as the Sián FKP 37 was the hybrid pioneer. However, it wasn't a PHEV as it used a different tech based on supercapacitors while the new supercar has pouch cells.
Now you can see Corvette using OLD ideas vs the new. E-RAY should has been 2 Ultium 62kW motors up front and a similar 3.9kWh battery to make it PHEV.
Price wise it could be about the same as the E-RAY.
Now you can see Corvette using OLD ideas vs the new. E-RAY should has been 2 Ultium 62kW motors up front and a similar 3.9kWh battery to make it PHEV.
Price wise it could be about the same as the E-RAY.
Actually it would have been less expensive - they could have made the carbon fiber rotors optional instead of using brakes for torque vectoring.
It appears I wasn’t clear with the point I was trying to make with this thread. I wasn’t trying to suggest that the eRay was first, I was trying to say the rear ICE / front electric motor / batteries in the tunnel approach is becoming a popular formula. I should have been more clear!
Now you can see Corvette using OLD ideas vs the new. E-RAY should has been 2 Ultium 62kW motors up front and a similar 3.9kWh battery to make it PHEV.
Price wise it could be about the same as the E-RAY.
Part of the reason the battery is larger than the E-ray is because the control electronics are above and in front of the front motors. They are in the tunnel of the E-Ray. I wonder if it will have a frunk or trunk? Will it have a targa top? If so, where will it be stored while driving?
Looks like the lambo also has an extra electric motor in the rear that can assist the rear wheels as well though.
"Located above the newly developed eight-speed, dual-clutch automatic transmission, a third electric motor can route its power to the rear wheels depending on the driving mode and road conditions."
rear ice / front motor / center batteries is a combination that makes sense when electrifying an existing platform - it's worth a closer look though, because beyond that, the differences between these two powertrains are enormous.
Yes. The electric motor pair with the transmission for torque fill is higher level power integration. The base Aventador is 507k I think. This next gen car will easily be 550+K.
These Lambo / McLaren threads are really a tough comparison for the E-Ray, but at the same time they highlight the technical challenges. GM's mandate was to "electrify the Corvette", not to "build the world's most advanced hybrid supercar". They also had a limited budget and a target sales price and a structure of hierarchy, and they weren't going to be allowed to exceed the power level of the Z06, on paper. I think they managed to close the performance gap rather well given their target, even with the single induction motor and brake vectoring, and after all, this is what engineering is all about. At the time the E-Ray started development, the Ultium parts weren't far enough along and I'm sure stuffing two large induction motors with gear reduction into the narrow front cradle space was a daunting, and maybe impossible, task at the time.
Supercar builders like Lambo and McLaren need time to develop these new technologies, such as small twin axial-flux motors. They start years earlier with a laser focus on power/weight/tech, and vision. The axial flux motor used in the Macs started development in 2015. One thing I would have liked to see would be an E-Ray not constrained by its place below the Z06, but that was never in the cards for this development.
.....
* LB744 will have a 3.8 kWh battery pack (eRay has a 1.9 kWh battery)
* In addition to regenerative braking, the LB744 can be plugged in to charge the battery pack (eRay can’t be plugged in to charge the battery pack)
* LB744 will be priced accordingly for a Lamborghini (eRay will be priced at the high end for a Chevy)
Sounds like it will be in the Ferrari SF90 $500,000 range.
It has twice the size battery that make some sense that it's a plug-in. BUT like many were upset the E-Ray is not, it's more a Maerkeing thing for these high hp perforamnce hybrids. Makes folks feel good.
This is what GM Execs say about why it would be foolish for the E-Ray to be plug-in: Three GM Exec quotes supporting no need for plug-in.
“As fast as you can discharge it, we recharge it, and we always keep it at a pretty optimum state of charge,” said Mike Kutcher, lead development engineer for the E-Ray.”
Mark Stheiner. Assistant Chief Engineer -Hybrid Systems said: "The battery is super small capacity. Offboard charging would be a non-event. You’d get home, plug it in, go take your shoes off, and you’d be ready to unplug it.”
Tadge Juechter said "It’s unlikely you’d pull in your driveway at much less than a full state of charge. Your last braking event coming into the garage is quite likely to top it off.”
It would be foolish BUT some want to tell their neighbors they have a plug-in hybrid. Might be a good aftermarket stick-up faux plug and flip up cover!
Thank you GM for building the "Performance Hybrid" leaked in 2019 with a small 1.9 kWh battery and only adding 300 lbs for 600 hp. It is "better mpg" compared to the Z06 ICE only with about the same hp: 14 mpg for the Z06 average City/Highway and as expected E-Ray ~= C8 19 mpg.
If you're not going to use the extra 160 hp, waste of money! If you want a Prius buy one!
"The drive unit consists of a differential with an electric motor at every input/output. There's a primary motor at the input and one at each output where the axle shafts exit for a total of three. All of this is housed in one case made of aluminum or magnesium to save weight. The three motors work in tandem to not only drive the vehicle forward but also provide torque vectoring and regenerative braking. By braking or powering one of the two outside motors, the vehicle can move in all sorts of funny ways—and put its power down more effectively."
Sounds like it will be in the Ferrari SF90 $500,000 range.
It has twice the size battery that make some sense that it's a plug-in. BUT like many were upset the E-Ray is not, it's more a Maerkeing thing for these high hp perforamnce hybrids. Makes folks feel good.
This is what GM Execs say about why it would be foolish for the E-Ray to be plug-in: Three GM Exec quotes supporting no need for plug-in.
“As fast as you can discharge it, we recharge it, and we always keep it at a pretty optimum state of charge,” said Mike Kutcher, lead development engineer for the E-Ray.”
Mark Stheiner. Assistant Chief Engineer -Hybrid Systems said: "The battery is super small capacity. Offboard charging would be a non-event. You’d get home, plug it in, go take your shoes off, and you’d be ready to unplug it.”
Tadge Juechter said "It’s unlikely you’d pull in your driveway at much less than a full state of charge. Your last braking event coming into the garage is quite likely to top it off.”
It would be foolish BUT some want to tell their neighbors they have a plug-in hybrid. Might be a good aftermarket stick-up faux plug and flip up cover!
Thank you GM for building the "Performance Hybrid" leaked in 2019 with a small 1.9 kWh battery and only adding 300 lbs for 600 hp. It is "better mpg" compared to the Z06 ICE only with about the same hp: 14 mpg for the Z06 average City/Highway and as expected E-Ray ~= C8 19 mpg.
If you're not going to use the extra 160 hp, waste of money! If you want a Prius buy one!
Actually what this new entry and the SF90 you mentioned show is that the future - or actually present - state of performance hybrids are PHEV. Not sure why you are thanking GM for copying the NSX with 10+ year old technology. And only using 1 motor so that they have to use the brakes for torque vectoring - highly inefficient and expensive option. I would be curious to see a poll of what the people - who are actually buying/interested in the ERAY - would prefer. A PHEV that ways 100 extra lbs with twin motors up fron, 12+ miles of real EV ranget and "optional" carbon fiber brakes - for a lower base price - or what they made. I would suggest you would be in the minority.
I'm curious how much supercapacitor tech from the Lamborghini SIÁN will find its way into their lineup. Maybe not the LB744, but another future variant.
I'm thinking the supercapacitor will be used for brief bursts of energy.
Will it cost 3+ times more than an ERay? Because it couldn't possibly be 3 times as good. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with, though.
Easily 3x as good. It has a freakin v12 that revs to 9500! That alone makes 3x better. Then it has 1k hp meaning it'll likely be as quick as the SF90 which is the quickest gas powered car in the quarter (excluding the Bugatti) making it probably a mid 9s car. Then the doors will go up too l0l. It will be one of the coolest cars on the market just like the Aventador was and will have many enthusiasts who can't afford it lusting over it.
Actually what this new entry and the SF90 you mentioned show is that the future - or actually present - state of performance hybrids are PHEV. Not sure why you are thanking GM for copying the NSX with 10+ year old technology. And only using 1 motor so that they have to use the brakes for torque vectoring - highly inefficient and expensive option. I would be curious to see a poll of what the people - who are actually buying/interested in the ERAY - would prefer. A PHEV that ways 100 extra lbs with twin motors up fron, 12+ miles of real EV ranget and "optional" carbon fiber brakes - for a lower base price - or what they made. I would suggest you would be in the minority.
Here is a multipart long answer.
First the obvious future is ONLY EVs as you are facing in CA and GM has said that is all they will make in 2035! As Mary Barra and Mark Reuss have clearly said they are bypassing hybrids for going directly to EV's. My guess, we'll see the C9 EV Vette before what was surely planed, the larger battery Prius type operating E-Ray GM would have to produce to meet the planned EPA 2025 mpg requirement. CA spent 41 million unsuccessfully suing the past administration when that EPA Plan was stopped January 2017 with a PEN. That PEN is gone and now the folks who were accepting essentially ~double the current Vette mpg (and 54.5 mpg on average for all cars/light trucks) are now saying NOPE ONLY no fossil fuels will do.
I have an extensive background and 55 years working closely with fabrication in most heavy industries, including auto manufacturing, Tier 1 auto suppliers etc. Also directly involved with management for our own manufacturing plants in the US and overseas. I understand this is NOT like Cinderella and on the stroke of midnight December 2034 all ICE vehicles disappear in a cloud of dust and EV's pop out. There will be many EV only models well before. Heck SC announced yesterday that VW will build a plant to make "in name" the old International Harvester Scott as EVs an hour from where I live. Five miles from my home Envision AESC (from Japan) just announced they will build a 1.5 million squared foot EV battery plant for BMW SUVs made in SC. So forget the future being PHEVs!
As far as why I want only a light weight "Perfomcne Only" Corvette, been following F1 since 2014 when they started with hybrids to reduce gasoline use and maintain speed. Actually they have significantly gained speed and cut gasoline use more than half. They get over 200 electric hp with a fast recovery ~40 lb battery. With a 1.6 Liter ICE and the electric motor they are besting times of ~4 Liter V12s! A great achievement. They don't plug them in and stopped allowing refueling for the same tracks and same length races! From an engineering viewpoint that has been very successful fossil fuel savings.
BUT plugging in cars (PHEV or EV only) to an overstressed electrical grid and getting electrical power by spending trillions of dollars on huge, bird killing 400 foot+ high offshore wind towers power generation all along the US coast is ridiculous, IMO! Worse, much of the high population world (China, India, SE Asia, etc etc) is using coal and adding coal powered electrical plants daily. Our efforts spending way more money than we have just to convert US cars to EVs is foolish!
Here is a multipart long answer.
....... the larger battery Prius type operating E-Ray GM would have to produce to meet the planned EPA 2025 mpg requirement. CA spent 41 million unsuccessfully suing the past administration when that EPA Plan was stopped January 2017 with a PEN. That PEN is gone and now the folks who were accepting essentially ~double the current Vette mpg ....
How about a response that you do not mention "Prius" or reference a "PEN"
03-07-2023, 09:30 AM
Well This Looks Familiar…
